Friend had smart meter installed without consent

bob2302

LeesArt said:

As said in other threads where this argument was used quoting a percentage or a ratio to minimise the impact, the issue is 4 MILLION, on Smart Meters that were supposed to have ability for remote upgrade. 

The 3 MILLION were in June last year and the 4 MILLION by end of December so now 3 months later who knows how many more there are.

How does that work if the problem is lack of connectivity?

EssexHebridean

Chris_b2z said:

@MattMattMattUK  Are you an official industry spokesperson on the MSE Energy Forum? You seem to quote specific details that would not be easily accessible in the public domain.

Industry representatives on MSE can be identified by their signatures, which state who they represent. This has been a long term expectation and I’m not aware of it having changed.  As far as I am aware the details that the more knowledgeable posters on the subject on this board (Matt being, without question, one) are all in the public domain. 

CouldntResist

LeesArt said;

There is a vulnerable lady, no respect given, no communications given, no choice given on location which may cause risk to the customer.

Where did this lady being 'vulnerable' come from? Is it like a form of Godwin's Law? Does the word have a meaning I'm unaware of, as it now seems that almost everyone is vulnerable.

I've noticed on many threads ;
Old -> vulnerable
Unlucky -> vulnerable
Stupid -> vulnerable
Lazy -> vulnerable
Didn't (trouble to) understand -> vulnerable
Didn't get the result I wanted -> vulnerable

matelodave

TBH the word has now been so overused and applied to all and sundry that its become virtually meaningless

Spoonie_Turtle

In the context of energy:
"Ofgem’s definition of vulnerability We define vulnerability as when a consumer’s personal circumstances and characteristics combine with aspects of the market to create situations where he or she is: 
- significantly less able than a typical domestic consumer to protect or represent his or her interests; and/or
- significantly more likely than a typical domestic consumer to suffer detriment or that detriment is likely to be more substantial."

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2020/01/consumer_vulnerability_strategy_2025.pdf
See also page 16 (printed p.16, but comes up as p.18 in the PDF reader) for a neat infographic of factors that Ofgem consider to contribute to vulnerability.

Also a helpful reminder for those here who have a tendency to be judgemental about people making suboptimal decisions:

"2.11. Our consumer research shows that many consumers are not making informed, active choices in the energy market, even if they wanted to. This will be for a variety of reasons. Some of these may relate to a customer’s capability, such as having the skills to understand their energy consumption. Some relate to their motivation, such as being unaware they could save money by switching tariff. There are also, as we know from behavioural science, less tangible barriers, that affect us all such as being forgetful, becoming distracted, or our natural preference to do an easy task over a perceived difficult one. These prevent us from making optimal decisions. We all have limited ‘bandwidth’ for decision making and rely on environmental cues and mental short cuts to help us make decisions quickly. These cues can either align with behaviour, or work against it.   

2.12. Consumers in a vulnerable situation are more likely to face multiple barriers compared to other customers. They may have competing priorities, less free time, or feel unable to make complex decisions."

bob2302

MattMattMattUK said:

LeesArt said:

I remember it was likened to getting a windows or IOS update or being triggered by the Energy company automatically like the way a Roku box is.

It was only likened to getting an OS update in the most simplistic, dumbed down information. It is a firmware update rather than an OS update, it is installed on fixed platforms rather than the variable platforms that Windows installs on.

It's a long time since I worked on embedded software, but when I did, updating firmware was pretty straightforward. It involved swapping between memory images with automatic rollback to the previous image if something goes wrong - very simple, very reliable. There's much more that can go wrong with the piecemeal updates in computers OSs.

MattMattMattUK

bob2302 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

LeesArt said:

I remember it was likened to getting a windows or IOS update or being triggered by the Energy company automatically like the way a Roku box is.

It was only likened to getting an OS update in the most simplistic, dumbed down information. It is a firmware update rather than an OS update, it is installed on fixed platforms rather than the variable platforms that Windows installs on.

It's a long time since I worked on embedded software, but when I did, updating firmware was pretty straightforward. It involved swapping between memory images with automatic rollback to the previous image if something goes wrong - very simple, very reliable. There's much more that can go wrong with the piecemeal updates in computers OSs.

I agree that there is much less likely to go wrong, but the difference is that the OS is not there to host the update. Most of the firmware updates go through OTA, no one notices. Those comms hubs and/or smart meters that need an update that cannot be provided OTA is where the issue comes in, on a PC the user could handle that themselves, even reinstall the OS, flash the BIOS etc. but that is not an option on a comms hub or smart meter, it requires engineer intervention, sometimes it just requires a hard reboot (which the user is also unable to do as the fuse ahead of the meter is sealed). I remember reading something about the there being an dead-man switch to reboot, or a auto-rollback, or even dual bootable firmware (so it installs the update on one, then switches when verified, or falls back to the previous if the new install does not verify), but there were various objections in terms of technical complications, issues that GCHQ presented etc. and a lot of technical information was not published. I did read up on other countries smart meters, comparison etc. and they all appear to have somewhat similar issues.

The major difference in other countries and the way they have alleviated many of the issues that we have was mass rollout and installation. Meters were rolled out street by street, they were compulsory, there were standard installers doing most of them, there were higher skilled installers for technically difficult installations, there were electricians on hand to move consumer units as required, there were comms experts to deal with issues. As they were close by doing the next wave they were able to trouble shoot any issues quickly and get everyone running and in most cases they did not have the conspiracy theorists to contend with that we have in the UK, if someone refused to allow the installation of a smart meter then the utility provider pulled the main fuse and cut off their supply. Several European countries are now at effectively 100% coverage, France is perhaps the most comparable to us in terms of systems and is at 85%, with near 100% in major towns and cities and lower percentages in more rural locations. They key to everyone who has got it right though is that installation has been centralised and compulsory. 

EssexHebridean

At 80 years of age, the person mentioned in the OP would certainly tick the supplier’s definition of vulnerable and whether “we” agree with that or not is irrelevant. 

The OP has been asked to give more information about the detail of what happened in the situation under discussion, and so far they have not, so there is probably little more we can do other than work with what information we have been given - which unfortunately does seem quite sketchy and indeed, to many who know how the suppliers and/or DNO works in relation to this sort of thing, implausible. 

Things we don’t know - as far as I can recall:
- whether in fact there was any prior communication which has not been mentioned here.
- whether the lady concerned is in fact “vulnerable” in the traditional sense - my Mum is 80 but is generally more “on the ball” than many people half her age! 

- whether she was on the priority services register at the time of the alleged incident - as if not, it may not even be known that she comes under the “vulnerable” heading

hubb said:

SAC2334 said:

 please inform the occupier that they have to accept a smart meter nowadays and that its a very good thing because it opens up the pathway to much cheaper energy prices .

Well it isn't and it doesn't. I (and many people who I have spoken to) will not have one either. On the contrary, It opens up the path to errors. For one reason in the recent news 4 million have gone wrong. But then again why are you questioning why she doesn't want one ? My op was about freedom of choice that was overridden. 

The meter she had replaced was a very old type but they still didn't give her the chance to say yes or no. That's the issue. 

In relation to the last sentence above - they don’t have to give her the chance to say yes or no - her “very old type” meter may well have been past end of life - in which case it will be required to be changed.  It does sound more and more possible to me that in fact she had previously had repeated communication about this and perhaps it had got to the point of an appointment being made for it to happen - and the visit under discussion here was in fact that appointment being completed. In that circumstance, she had no “freedom of choice” so we can at least confirm that no, there was not any overriding of her freedom of choice. 

As for smart meters opening up the pathway to the availability of paying less for your energy - they do. Just a small amount of research would confirm that much. IMO (and indeed the opinion of many others who’ve learned a little about this) that is only likely to get more pronounced as time moves on. 

EssexHebridean

On a different matter - OP, if you come back to this thread, please have a conversation with your friend about asking for full identification from someone arriving at her door like this, and certainly about letting them in. It is worrying that she seemingly let this person in without having the first clue who they were or indeed if they were genuine - and frankly, she is probably lucky that the “worst” that happened here was an updated energy meter.  

Gerry1

Most suppliers offer a password system to allow genuine meter readers to be identified before access is allowed.