Rubble in underfloor void

hatt55

I've just had a damp surveyor out to look at various issues at my Victorian terrace. They lifted a few floorboards in the living/dining room and (the areas visible at least) look to be filled to the brim with builders rubble.

From what I could see it seems to be a mixture of all sorts - bricks, plaster, ceramic tiles. A wall was taken down at some point in the past and perhaps other work was done in the house at the same time and it all got tipped into here. From a damp perspective it would be better if it wasn't there and it also makes me a bit uneasy. I've sometimes gone down an internet worm hole reading about all the things that could contain asbestos in an old house and now I'm thinking about how i've been sitting above this pile of dusty waste for some years (albeit under tight floorboards, underlay, carpet and little airflow). 

The damp surveyor said it wasn't uncommon for builders to do this. Is it possible to test a pile of rubble to see if it contains hazardous stuff? I can imagine its difficult to get a representative sample without disturbing it and taking up lots of floorboards. And if I take up lots of floorboards then it would seem like a good opportunity to just remove all the rubble.

Its all a bit much. Help!

stuart45

There could be some asbestos in there, but it would be difficult to know in random tests. You could get it all removed and have the air tested for fibres when it's done.

Ganga

As for it being asbestos ,well as it is under floor ,underlay then carpet it will not be a hazard especially if left alone ,as for the damp issue please be carefull as a lot of these damp specialists are only out to sell you useless products that will not cure the problem ,can you post some photos of the problem and others will give you some helpful advise .

Eldi_Dos

I do not think asbestos was generally used in Victorian builds, so if it is debris from original build that might put your mind at rest.

hatt55

The damp surveyor is independent rather than working for a damp company, so I'm hoping they won't just be trying to sell me a DPC.

Yes, I'm thinking that random sampling of the material would have a good chance of missing stuff. Though equally, I have no particular reason to think that asbestos is present, its just something that I keep encountering when I'm reading about DIY stuff. If I were just to assume it was contaminated, then I imagine it would be a very expensive job to remove. For the same reason, it would be incredibly hard to prove that it _wasn't_ hazardous without taking it all out and testing every piece!

This is one of those instances where I really overthink things (though hazardous materials are maybe a good reason to think a bit more...). If the damp surveyor is right and this is common practice then surely not everyone can be approaching rubble in their house as needing to be treated as hazardous waste. 

stuart45

It's better to have a decent air flow under the floor, because it's possible for the timbers to get damp and rot. Whenever I've been on jobs where there was a load of rubble under the floor it was removed.

DullGreyGuy

Asbestos is really 1930s to 1980s with a big uptick from 1960 onwards. So it somewhat depends when the junk was hidden under the floor. Random testing isn't really going to help much, you'd really need a proper asbestos company to take non-random samples for testing. 

Hiding stuff out of sight is a trick thats never gone out of fashion. In 2010 moved into a new build rental and one of the toilets stopped flushing quickly. With a concealed system they'd left no access to it so had to open up the whole shelf over the false wall. Cystern was full of crud, in part as the lid was missing, but in the rest of the false wall was a load of broken timber, plasterboard, a pair of gloves, a spanner and a size 14 safety boot... I'm guessing the later was a prank against someone. 

35har1old

DullGreyGuy said:

Asbestos is really 1930s to 1980s with a big uptick from 1960 onwards. So it somewhat depends when the junk was hidden under the floor. Random testing isn't really going to help much, you'd really need a proper asbestos company to take non-random samples for testing. 

Hiding stuff out of sight is a trick thats never gone out of fashion. In 2010 moved into a new build rental and one of the toilets stopped flushing quickly. With a concealed system they'd left no access to it so had to open up the whole shelf over the false wall. Cystern was full of crud, in part as the lid was missing, but in the rest of the false wall was a load of broken timber, plasterboard, a pair of gloves, a spanner and a size 14 safety boot... I'm guessing the later was a prank against someone. 

Asbestos can be present in buildings upto 2000 if they where refurbished 

FreeBear

hatt55 said:

I've just had a damp surveyor out to look at various issues at my Victorian terrace. They lifted a few floorboards in the living/dining room and (the areas visible at least) look to be filled to the brim with builders rubble.

From what I could see it seems to be a mixture of all sorts - bricks, plaster, ceramic tiles. A wall was taken down at some point in the past and perhaps other work was done in the house at the same time and it all got tipped into here. From a damp perspective it would be better if it wasn't there and it also makes me a bit uneasy. I've sometimes gone down an internet worm hole reading about all the things that could contain asbestos in an old house and now I'm thinking about how i've been sitting above this pile of dusty waste for some years (albeit under tight floorboards, underlay, carpet and little airflow).

My favourite tale from the rabbit hole is this one - https://jack-kelly.com/insulating_our_victorian_living_room

The void filled with rubble, then a structural wall built on top of the joists with a bit of random crap packed underneath. Not surprising the joists were rotting away....

In your shoes, I'd be wanting to get rid of as much of the rubble as possible. If the majority of the floor needs to come up, make the most of the opportunity and put some insulation under the boards.

daivid

Rightly or wrongly if there is nothing hinting at asbestos I would not be worried on the asbestos side. If there are tiles, flues, boards etc that look like they could be asbestos then I would treat it as asbestos. Similarly if there are clues that asbestos has been used in the house I'd be more concerned about the rubble. All that said if you plan to remove the rubble yourself then regular building dust is harmful enough so you will want to wear a good quality mask and personally I would wear coveralls if moving a lot of rubble in one go.

hatt55

Incidentally I had someone out to test textured ceilings last week (awaiting the results) which is in part why concerns about asbestos are on my mind. 

I asked them about the rubble and they said as part of a general domestic asbestos survey they would floorboards and visually see if anything looked suspect. If it didn't look suspect, they would consider it general rubble. So what you're saying rings true in as much as someone with a trained eye - possibly not me - could visually assess what's there as a first port of call. I am not in a position to judge one piece of plasterboard from another! 

They also didn't say anything like "oh, we're always being asked to remove stuff from under domestic floorboards", which maybe suggests people normally don't think about this.

So i think my next step might be to get someone qualified to visually check what's under there and see if they can see anything suspicious that I should be concerned about. I'm almost will to get a pay a bit more to get a professional to do that and undertake any testing if necessary for the piece of mind.