Do we have to exchange refund/phone for customer?

Cube123

Hi all,

Coming at this from a different angle from normal, I work for a major UK phone shop, had a customer come in recently who bought an iphone (on contract) from us in October 2022, he claims since the iOS 17.4 update the phone wont work (I was off so didn't witness this), he says he took the phone to apple who said that the phone couldn't be repaired.

I find this odd as a DFU restore would normally fix this type of issue but anyway...

He says we need to do a free repair/exchange/refund as its within a "second year warranty".  As I understand it its after 6 months since he bought it therefore the burden to prove the fault was inherent is on him, given it was caused by an update and thus wasn't inherent what rights does he have if any here?.

I have sent his phone to our repair center and they will make a determination as to weather the repair is chargeable but if it is, does the customer have any recourse against us?

Thank you.

Lorian

Can't help with the legals but if 17.4 broke it I'd be applying 17.4.1 released yesterday with undocumented fixes....

user1977

I would hope this major UK phone shop doesn't normally cadge its legal advice from consumer-oriented web forums?

Cube123

user1977 said:

I would hope this major UK phone shop doesn't normally cadge its legal advice from consumer-oriented web forums?

The issue is in the store we don't have clear guidance about these matter, we have to refer them higher up, I wish to have a greater understanding for my own personal benefit however and so I can be more assured in myself when dealing with issues like this in the future.  Its not the store seeking advice, its me.

400ixl

What does the warranty provided say? Many exclude software issues.

I'd want to know why Apple said it couldn't be repaired and what the underlying fault was. To a degree that is the owner showing their proof that there is a fault, but without detail you don't know if it is a faut which could be considered as there at the point of manufacture.

Sometimes and update can trigger a boot loop which is caused by faulty hardware, so it is possible.

Cube123

400ixl said:

What does the warranty provided say? Many exclude software issues.

I'd want to know why Apple said it couldn't be repaired and what the underlying fault was. To a degree that is the owner showing their proof that there is a fault, but without detail you don't know if it is a faut which could be considered as there at the point of manufacture.

Sometimes and update can trigger a boot loop which is caused by faulty hardware, so it is possible.

I wish I knew, I wasnt in that day and was video called by a coworker and the customer talked to me, they only said apple said it had a US chip in it and couldn't be repaired, I asked for clarification on this but then he went on to talk about suing the company.

The phone isnt some grey import, its been sent away for repair now if he comes back ill find out in more detail and perhaps ask for a copy of the report.

born_again

Nice to see Apple as usual hot on helping customer "Can't be repaired" Yet if has been sent off for repair.
Hope it comes back fixed & customer goes back to Apple giving them what for 🤣

Basic consumer rights.
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Hello OP

The customer is entitled to a repair or replacement (probably repair as it would likely be fair to say a new replacement would be disproportionate).

However as you say it’s down to them to prove but if they do prove such then any costs they’ve incurred (I.e having the phone inspected) should by covered by the trader.

If the phone didn’t conform to the contract and the shop refused to repair or replace then the customer would have to exercise their final right to reject which would require a refund minus 17/18 months of use.

Not sure how this situation would sit as presumably you don’t have to update the phone and can use it with previous iOS but I guess it would depend on the exact cause of the issue. 

Does your shop’s repair centre tell you what the problem is?

DullGreyGuy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Not sure how this situation would sit as presumably you don’t have to update the phone and can use it with previous iOS but I guess it would depend on the exact cause of the issue. 

In my opinion, it depends what's happened... any phone sold in the last few years should be compatable with OS14 and the system simply refuses to install it if your phone isn't. So to conform to contract it should have been able to update. 

Now if they tried to do the updated with 1% battery left but on mains power and then pulled the power cord out half way through the update this would be a consumer created problem and not be covered. 

RefluentBeans

Could this be an Apple ‘it wasn’t bought from us, so we can’t repair it. But if you had bought it from us, this is what we would do’ sort of speel? There’s a clear difference between this can’t be repaired by anyone and we won’t repair it for you (or even the we can repair but it’s going to cost you £x, why not just get a new phone for nearly the same price - looking at Apple specifically here). 

Like you said, software faults are normally able to be fixed by doing a firmware upgrade. I’d imagine the phone will be repaired, and you’ll have either a happy customer or unhappy customer. My gut tells me the latter, as they were hoping to get a new phone from this.

As for consumer rights training, I agree. Retail workers don’t get routinely trained. The law is written with the basis that before 6 months, the retailer has to prove the phone was not faulty (which is hard to prove, often having to make an argument of abuse of the device). After 6 months the retailer can ask for proof unless it’s a clear fault (think of suit jacket with all of the stitching coming undone - clear fault no need to go and ask a suit maker to assess it). Some retailers will inspect the product themselves - they are legally allowed to do this (for all returns) and determine if it’s inherently faulty or not (ie whether a return should be offered or not). This does not negate the consumers right to get an independent report done, but often in that case it’ll have to go a third party resolution (whether that be court or a dispute handling service). 

After the first month, the retailer can opt to repair or replace the product. This is based on what is most cost effective (a 5 year iPhone can’t reasonably expected to be replaced, but the lightning port can be repaired). But the retailer has only one chance to repair before the consumer can exercise their final right to reject and force a refund (less any money after 6 months). 

FWIW - assuming you’re working for a large retailer, you’ll have a Learning & Development department/training team. I think you should suggest you get proper training on consumer rights and how that impacts SOP’s. A company can’t use the excuse ‘we didn’t train our staff so how were we to know they were depriving people of their rights’ so having good training is the solution to that. Doubt it would happen, but it’d be good to suggest nonetheless. 

Jonboy_1984

Where this gets very messy as with all hardware/software issues is that the retailer have seemingly sold a working item and the customer “allowed” an update from Apple after the sale, that the retailer cannot control, and has seemingly caused the issue. This means it was not an inherent fault when the item was sold.