Deprivation of assets vs just spending as you go along

Floss

kaysdee said:

...Anything you receive in benefits, state pension, private pension, etc, will be used to assess your financial contribution and, in the case of residential care, the person will only be left with just a weekly allowance of £25 or so....

And if the person is in residential care, their needs are fully met so they do not need to maintain the roof over their head, pay bills, buy food etc. If they are in need of that level of care, they are unlikely to be going out for meals / to the garden centre etc so have no real need for anything more than pocket money. 

elsien

I'm sorry, but that is just not right.
Being in a care home means that you couldn't manage with the standard 4 calls a day. Or that you need help at night which isn't available in the community. It absolutely does not mean that you do not want/are not able to go out and enjoy the activities that you used to do. The reason people don't go out for meals, to garden centres, even to the local shop for a paper etc is generally down to staffing levels and not personal preferences. 
To say that you are in a care home so you don't need to go out ever again is just ridiculous. Some people prefer not to and that is their choice. But I used to book a wheelchair taxi for my grandmother to go with her to town because she'd go stir crazy otherwise. I work with someone who really values his weekly trip to the bookies that he has been going to for years. 
"Pocket money" is also a misnomer when it pays for haircuts, chiropody, clothes, taxi to hospital appointments if hospital transport is  not an option - all the things which are not part of the standard fees but are hardly luxuries when you have no option because the care home are not allowed to cut your toenails, etc. 

mybestattempt

kaysdee said:

As I’ve recently discovered, even if you don’t have funds to pay directly for your care, every single person will be expected to make a financial contribution to their care needs. Anything you receive in benefits, state pension, private pension, etc, will be used to assess your financial contribution and, in the case of residential care, the person will only be left with just a weekly allowance of £25 or so. Everything in excess of this and you’ll get an invoice from the council for your contribution.

I'm not sure why, or if, you think that is wrong.

Surely it makes sense that on going income should go towards the same day to day living expenses it would be used/needed for prior to going into a residential care home given that home provide will provide accommodation, food, laundry etc.

Grumpy_chap

Albermarle said:

they ask that people who have reasonable assets to contribute to keep the show on the road.

Some well off people would find it immoral to try and get the cash strapped local authority to pay for their care, when they could easily afford to pay for it themselves.

On a  more practical point if the local authorities had to fund all care with no input from self funders, then the money would have to come from somewhere. 

What does happen, in practice, is that the LA negotiates a discount from the base line cost for the rooms that are LA funded.
This results in the self-funders having to pay a surcharge to make up that gap.
I have no objection, in principal, to self funders having to pay their own way, but they should not be required to pay to make up the discount of the LA-funded.  Though, as you said, that increased LA gap would have to be made up by taxation, probably paid by the same self-funders.

lr1277

Further to my earlier comment about controlling your own desting, I will say money gives you choices.

I have posted a number of times about my dad, but have missed out the following.

My dad when he was younger looked at this family history and decided to save money in case he needed it when older and needed care. When I was a child he was relentless about saving money. A frequent phrase was 'a penny saved is a penny earned'. I didn't appreciate that till recently.

He was hosptalised in his 80's after a fall. He hated every minute of it, the 24hr noise, lights, other patients on his Alzheimers/dementia ward. He begged his family to spring him from that ward and take him home. We didn't. However after 6 weeks, his consultant agreed to dishcharge him so that he could go to a private hospital, with said consultant now becoming his private doctor. This was fine as dad got on with this doctor.

The reason the doctor kept him in for 6 weeks was they found many issues/complications. These all had to be found, radiology/patholog tested and then treatment plans drawn up.

Over the next few years, he had multiple stays in private hospitals as well as one or 2 NHS hospitals.

The private hosptals cost plus the costs of visits by the doctor, private prescriptions, private ambulances, private pnysiotherapy and other things I have forgotten.

If you think £1500/week is expensive, imagine paying that per night, but this would include hospital costs, drugs, the daily doctor visit, treatments etc Over a 4 year period, dad was probably in a private hospital for 6-9 months, with the associated costs.Imagine having the cash to pay all those costs in a readily available form.

As you might imaging the service from the private doctor was fantastic. Pretty much always available, even when he was on holiday. Sometimes able to visit within an hour of calling him, but sometimes not. Dad did pay for this, The cost per visit did rise as the comlexity of dad's conditions increased. But all in all a terrific service and level of care.

After some time, dad could come home and for the last few months of his life he was seen by carers. Two carers four times a day. This was because dad wanted to be at home. Also the doctor advised, when people go into a care home, they go downhill very quickly He counseled against a permanent care home place. Respite care in a home wa acceptable, but nothing permanent.

But dad died at home and we as a family had given him the best care we could aided by carers which he could afford.

So your later life can be expensive, possibly. Now you could put yourself in the hands of government funded services be it in a NHS hospital or a LA care home and that is your choice if you want to leave something to your beneficiaries. But if you have no money because you have given it away, you will be at the mercy of other peoples' decisions and the level of care they decide you should have. Good luck with that.

As I said, money gives you choices.

Edited to add some notes.

when dad had carers from the LA, their arrival time window as a few hours. This was a problem because dad needed certain drugs at certain times. Once we went for private carers, they pretty much arrived at the agreed time.

Should you need a stay in a private hospital, not all private hospitals take all patients. Some hospitals are only geared up for surgical care and not medical care. There was only one hospital available to my dad's doctor that took on medical patients and that was in London. So that involved transport costs. Also as I don't drive, I needed taxis to visit him. A further cost. Especially as his stays were during covid and I didn't want to take the train/tube. And the private hospitals that might take you as a patient is dependent upon which hospitals your doctor is registered with.

Kirkmain

Grumpy_chap said:

Albermarle said:

they ask that people who have reasonable assets to contribute to keep the show on the road.

Some well off people would find it immoral to try and get the cash strapped local authority to pay for their care, when they could easily afford to pay for it themselves.

On a  more practical point if the local authorities had to fund all care with no input from self funders, then the money would have to come from somewhere. 

What does happen, in practice, is that the LA negotiates a discount from the base line cost for the rooms that are LA funded.
This results in the self-funders having to pay a surcharge to make up that gap.
I have no objection, in principal, to self funders having to pay their own way, but they should not be required to pay to make up the discount of the LA-funded.  Though, as you said, that increased LA gap would have to be made up by taxation, probably paid by the same self-funders.

wow I had no idea. It was rage inducing enough knowing those who worked and saved had to pay when those who never worked or spent friviously get care for free. but to think the former are actually supplementing the latter. How can any reasonable person think this is fair? And DOA laws makes those who just want the best life for their descendants seem like criminals

Hal17

Kirkmain said:

wow I had no idea. It was rage inducing enough knowing those who worked and saved had to pay when those who never worked or spent friviously get care for free. but to think the former are actually supplementing the latter. How can any reasonable person think this is fair? And DOA laws makes those who just want the best life for their descendants seem like criminals

My dad is currently paying £80K a year and I've been told unofficially that he is paying over £20K more as a self funding resident than the home receives for its many LA residents. And his fees will increase by another 9% next year. I don't have the heart to tell him how much it costs he thinks he's living there for free.

Kirkmain

Hal17 said:

Kirkmain said:

wow I had no idea. It was rage inducing enough knowing those who worked and saved had to pay when those who never worked or spent friviously get care for free. but to think the former are actually supplementing the latter. How can any reasonable person think this is fair? And DOA laws makes those who just want the best life for their descendants seem like criminals

My dad is currently paying £80K a year and I've been told unofficially that he is paying over £20K more as a self funding resident than the home receives for its many LA residents. And his fees will increase by another 9% next year. I don't have the heart to tell him how much it costs he thinks he's living there for free.

I feel for your dad and you have done the right thing not telling him. but imagine how smug the LA residents feel, especially if they know they never worked or spent their money on loads of nice holidays and leased nice cars all their lives. I'm sure it will even contribute to longer life expectancy. That comfort and joy in knowing you got something for nothing. 

elsien

Kirkmain said:

Hal17 said:

Kirkmain said:

wow I had no idea. It was rage inducing enough knowing those who worked and saved had to pay when those who never worked or spent friviously get care for free. but to think the former are actually supplementing the latter. How can any reasonable person think this is fair? And DOA laws makes those who just want the best life for their descendants seem like criminals

My dad is currently paying £80K a year and I've been told unofficially that he is paying over £20K more as a self funding resident than the home receives for its many LA residents. And his fees will increase by another 9% next year. I don't have the heart to tell him how much it costs he thinks he's living there for free.

I feel for your dad and you have done the right thing not telling him. but imagine how smug the LA residents feel, especially if they know they never worked or spent their money on loads of nice holidays and leased nice cars all their lives. I'm sure it will even contribute to longer life expectancy. That comfort and joy in knowing you got something for nothing. 

Life really isn't like that, and I'm fairly sure you are just button pressing now so I'm out. 

Albermarle

Kirkmain said:

Hal17 said:

Kirkmain said:

wow I had no idea. It was rage inducing enough knowing those who worked and saved had to pay when those who never worked or spent friviously get care for free. but to think the former are actually supplementing the latter. How can any reasonable person think this is fair? And DOA laws makes those who just want the best life for their descendants seem like criminals

My dad is currently paying £80K a year and I've been told unofficially that he is paying over £20K more as a self funding resident than the home receives for its many LA residents. And his fees will increase by another 9% next year. I don't have the heart to tell him how much it costs he thinks he's living there for free.

I feel for your dad and you have done the right thing not telling him. but imagine how smug the LA residents feel, especially if they know they never worked or spent their money on loads of nice holidays and leased nice cars all their lives. I'm sure it will even contribute to longer life expectancy. That comfort and joy in knowing you got something for nothing. 

Many people get something for nothing. Such as the offspring of wealthier families getting large house deposits, or large inheritances, free holidays etc
There are injustices and unfairness in every system. Personally I would rather be rich than skint, even if it meant paying for my own care.