Sold my car privately - buyer threatening court

MobileSaver

Cranessss said:

Thank you, MobileSaver said:

Cranessss said:

I recently sold my 2012 car with 83k miles ... it was listed in excellent condition

Playing devil's advocate, that was a really silly thing to state for a twelve year old car with 83,000 miles on the clock unless you actually said "in excellent condition for its age" but there's nothing you can do about that now.

Cranessss said:

He’s also threatened small claims court which worries me

To take you to court the buyer has to pay a fee which he may be reluctant to do given his case is weak - the fact he himself has stated some of the problems are intermittent goes some way to casting doubt on whether you knew about them and/or whether they existed when he bought it.

Firstly though he needs to issue you with a Letter Before Action. This doesn't have to be a physical paper letter, email is fine and probably a Facebook message too; what matters is the content of the message which has to clearly lay out how the buyer wants you to resolve this and within what timeframe - have you received such a message?

I haven’t received such a message, only threats to suggest he will take me to the small claims court and he will now seek legal advice. So I assume once that advice is sought he would then send a letter although deeming these things major faults based on his description for things I’ve never encountered seems like a waste of everyone’s time.

If he really does get legal advice then any competent solicitor will inform him that he has to first issue a Letter Before Action before taking you to court. 

As has been said, it is more likely to be a bluff but you will get at least one more chance to consider your options before this ends up in court so for now I would ignore and see what, if anything, turns up. (For what it's worth I agree with you that all the listed faults are minor and should be no surprise for a 12 year old car.)

Cranessss

MobileSaver said:

Cranessss said:

Thank you, MobileSaver said:

Cranessss said:

I recently sold my 2012 car with 83k miles ... it was listed in excellent condition

Playing devil's advocate, that was a really silly thing to state for a twelve year old car with 83,000 miles on the clock unless you actually said "in excellent condition for its age" but there's nothing you can do about that now.

Cranessss said:

He’s also threatened small claims court which worries me

To take you to court the buyer has to pay a fee which he may be reluctant to do given his case is weak - the fact he himself has stated some of the problems are intermittent goes some way to casting doubt on whether you knew about them and/or whether they existed when he bought it.

Firstly though he needs to issue you with a Letter Before Action. This doesn't have to be a physical paper letter, email is fine and probably a Facebook message too; what matters is the content of the message which has to clearly lay out how the buyer wants you to resolve this and within what timeframe - have you received such a message?

I haven’t received such a message, only threats to suggest he will take me to the small claims court and he will now seek legal advice. So I assume once that advice is sought he would then send a letter although deeming these things major faults based on his description for things I’ve never encountered seems like a waste of everyone’s time.

If he really does get legal advice then any competent solicitor will inform him that he has to first issue a Letter Before Action before taking you to court. 

As has been said, it is more likely to be a bluff but you will get at least one more chance to consider your options before this ends up in court so for now I would ignore and see what, if anything, turns up. (For what it's worth I agree with you that all the listed faults are minor and should be no surprise for a 12 year old car.)

Thank you for taking the time on this! I really appreciate it. I’ve sold many cars privately in good faith in the past but this is the only issue I’ve ever had. Hopefully it passes but the time and stress is a real pain.

TELLIT01

MobileSaver said:

Cranessss said:

I recently sold my 2012 car with 83k miles ... it was listed in excellent condition

Playing devil's advocate, that was a really silly thing to state for a twelve year old car with 83,000 miles on the clock unless you actually said "in excellent condition for its age" but there's nothing you can do about that now.

I was going to say exactly the same thing.  Listing a 12 year old car as in excellent condition, no matter how well it have been looked after is risky.  The OP may be thinking 'for its age' and assuming anybody reading the advert will think the same way, but they clearly don't.

Cranessss

TELLIT01 said:

MobileSaver said:

Cranessss said:

I recently sold my 2012 car with 83k miles ... it was listed in excellent condition

Playing devil's advocate, that was a really silly thing to state for a twelve year old car with 83,000 miles on the clock unless you actually said "in excellent condition for its age" but there's nothing you can do about that now.

I was going to say exactly the same thing.  Listing a 12 year old car as in excellent condition, no matter how well it have been looked after is risky.  The OP may be thinking 'for its age' and assuming anybody reading the advert will think the same way, but they clearly don't.

Yeah thank you, I appreciate that an in future I’ll say for its age etc. I didn’t feel it would be an issue either after the inspection and test drive and message once he had driven it home. It was all ‘tidy’, ‘beautiful’ and since the complaints it’s still lived up to expectations apart from these two minor faults that have since arisen.
thank you for your comments

MobileSaver

mortgageFTB said:

Sold as seen. Buyer’s issue now.

This is incorrect. Most consumer contract law does not apply to the OP as a private seller but one thing that does apply is that the description must accurately describe the car.

The mistake the OP appears to have made is describing the car as being in "excellent condition" which is probably unlikely for a twelve year old car and so the buyer may have a legitimate claim against the OP. Whether the buyer actually takes this further is anyone's guess until and unless a LBA appears.

Alderbank

I don't agree with others here.
There was no attempt to conceal that the car was 12 years old with 83,000 miles on the clock. Any comparison can only be with cars of similar make, model, age and mileage and I am sure that is how a judge would see it in the vanishingly unlikely event that it went to court.
Different if the OP had used descriptors such as 'like new' or 'showroom condition' where the comparison could reasonably be with brand new vehicles or those actually in a showroom.

A couple of questions:

• How soon after buying did the buyer complain? There is a big difference between complaining the day after purchase and three months after purchase.

• OP has sold 'many cars' privately. How many? Most people never sell privately outside their close circle of friends and family. I've been driving for 50 years and have only ever sold two cars privately. If the buyer and his friends can trace other facebook ads of cars you have sold that could make a difference.

Okell

@Cranessss -  as others have said you've probably engaged with him too much already.  

If he contacts you again I'd suggest you tell him that you are not going to engage in any further communication with him unless and until he actually issues a court claim against you.  Make it clear to him that if he turns up at your home you will have no hesitation in calling the police.  Then ignore his calls, texts and emails

In the probably unlikely event that you do receive a Letter Before Claim (LBC) from him (or his solicitor) come back here for advice.  Remember, just because he sends you a LBC it doesn't necessarily mean that he actually will sue you, but it's something he must do before he can sue you.  A LBC is often used as a scare tactic. (In fact it's often recommended on here!)

You don't really need to worry until you actually receive notification from the court that you are being sued.  That is the time you really do need to take action and to get advice.  In particular you must respond to the claim within the prescribed court timescales.  Whatever you do, if it gets to that stage, don't ignore it.

As others have said, as a private seller you don't have the same strict legal obligations to your seller as a dealer would.  But you still need to describe the car accurately and honestly and you have to answer honestly any questions the seller asked.

Personally I'd be reluctant to describe anything as being in "excellent condition" - even for it's age.  I'd go no further than good or very good for its age.

You almost certainly have nothing at all to worry about.  He's probably trying to intimidate you. Tell him you'll call the police if he comes round to your home and ignore him until and unless you receive a LBC.  You only really need to do something if he issues a claim against you.

Even if he does issue a claim it won't go down on "your record" unless you both lose and don't pay up.  But I think I'd bet that this won't go any further.

MobileSaver

Alderbank said:

There was no attempt to conceal that the car was 12 years old with 83,000 miles on the clock. Any comparison can only be with cars of similar make, model, age and mileage

I respectfully disagree because of the unfortunate description used in the ad.

• excellent (adjective) extremely good; outstanding

The wording "excellent condition" suggests the car is not typical of the average 12 year old 83,000 mile car whereas the list of faults contradicts that description - and that's the problem.

Alderbank said:

I am sure that is how a judge would see it in the vanishingly unlikely event that it went to court.

I agree it would be a brave buyer who took this to court; they'll have to pay a solicitor for advice (which they won't get back) and then pay the court fee, all with an uncertain outcome.

Until a LBA has been issued we don't know exactly what the buyer is claiming for but regardless small claims can be a lottery at the best of times and to my mind this one could go either way.

Alderbank said:

OP has sold 'many cars' privately. How many? Most people never sell privately outside their close circle of friends and family. I've been driving for 50 years and have only ever sold two cars privately. If the buyer and his friends can trace other facebook ads of cars you have sold that could make a difference.

This had crossed my mind too but I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole...

If such a thing is raised in the LBA then I'm sure everyone would advise the OP differently and that settling outside of court would be the sensible option.

Cranessss

Alderbank said:

I don't agree with others here.
There was no attempt to conceal that the car was 12 years old with 83,000 miles on the clock. Any comparison can only be with cars of similar make, model, age and mileage and I am sure that is how a judge would see it in the vanishingly unlikely event that it went to court.
Different if the OP had used descriptors such as 'like new' or 'showroom condition' where the comparison could reasonably be with brand new vehicles or those actually in a showroom.

A couple of questions:

• How soon after buying did the buyer complain? There is a big difference between complaining the day after purchase and three months after purchase.

• OP has sold 'many cars' privately. How many? Most people never sell privately outside their close circle of friends and family. I've been driving for 50 years and have only ever sold two cars privately. If the buyer and his friends can trace other facebook ads of cars you have sold that could make a difference.

Thank you for the comments! To be clear, I’ve sold 4 cars privately in twelve years ☺️

the complaints came a few days after but as he had the same make model before that was involved in an accident and was essentially asking me to agree to an unknown amount for issues I’d never suffered I was cautious and didn’t want to agree to anything as it felt fishy and then the pressure and threats of court and contact in person started.

many thanks 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Worth a note that someone doesn't have to send a letter before before filing small claims, they should send one but AFAIK can continue with their claim without doing so (but might have less chance of being awarded costs). 

Shame you can't find the ad OP, where did you sell it?