INHERITANCE TAX AND GRANT OF PROBATE PROCESS-CHAOS!

HUMBUG

Please see this article below which seems to explain the delays in processing my online  'Grant Of Probate' application which I submitted on the 5th Dec 23. Therefore the process that applied to me was the 'Post Covid' that I have bolded further below.

After 3 months , my online application was still not granted and I have been chasing and complaining to the HMCTS dept for a few weeks to find out why they are sending me emails relating to information already on the IHT forms.
 
For example:
Asking me about my mothers death 4  years ago which was already detailed on form IHT402 . 

Now they've  just sent me another email below:

"We are awaiting an from HMRC to progress your application. Have you sent your IHT400 to HMRC and paid inheritance tax (if payable)? If so, you do not need to take any action. The IHT421 will be sent directly to us by HMRC once they are able to issue it.
If you have not taken the action above, please do so as soon as possible to avoid further delays.
If you require any guidance regarding IHT forms, please contact HMRC on 0300 123 1072."

I am assuming they meant 'We are awaiting an email from HMRC to progress your application" .

So it looks like I will now have to chase HMRC to find out what they've done with the 50+ pages of IHT information I sent to them and whether they submitted that email to HMCTS. They should have done that 20  days after I sent the forms to them on the 25th Oct 23.  I cannot imagine they didn't do this as it's been 4 months. 

I bet when I phone them tomorrow they will say they did send the email  and refer me back to HMCTS. Then HMCTS will say they didn't receive it and refer me back to HMRC IHT . 

I've sent an email to both Nick Goodwin (CEO HMCTS)  and Jim Harra (CEO HMRC) raising a complaint .

I informed them that I want this issue resolved or I will have to ask my MP to intervene. 

Have other forum members experienced similar problems? 

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There has been lots in the professional press lately regarding very long turnaround times for probate applications. To some extent this has spilled into the general press and last autumn gained enough traction for the Justice Select Committee to launch a call for evidence from practitioners in this area.

This attention from Westminster seems to have brought some pressure for change and a number of actions have been taken by HM Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) to try and reduce their backlog.

The impact of the pandemic on the process

One area that particularly caught our eye was how HMCTS interact with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC), which is summarised as follows:

Before the Covid-19 pandemic

The process for dealing with Inheritance Tax (IHT) involved filing an IHT return with HMRC, waiting for an IHT421 receipt from HMRC, and then submitting the IHT421 alongside the probate application, as evidence that IHT had been dealt with.

During Covid

The IHT421 was still submitted, but instead of returning it to the professional, HMRC would email a copy to the probate registry and notify the professional that they had done so, enabling the professional to apply for the grant of probate.

Post-Covid

The IHT421 was abandoned, and the probate application was moved online. HMRC would still email the probate registry to confirm that IHT had been dealt with, but without notifying or copying in the professional. Professionals were required to wait 20 working days after filing the IHT forms before applying for the grant of probate, to allow HMRC to notify HMCTS.

The current process and its limitations ( as of Jan 24)

Now, it's back to the future. Professionals must file the IHT with HMRC and then await a code to be sent to them confirming receipt/processing. They cannot make the application to HMCTS until they have that receipt/code.

The whole thing has the vibe of two siblings standing next to a broken window and a football, each accusing the other of having been the kicker.

If the delays really are with HMRC and not HMCTS, then this will decrease turnaround times with HMCTS, which will please the Justice Select Committee. But it will not actually do anything for consumers, who will have two waiting times instead of one, and whose advisers will be left to chase up delayed codes from HMRC rather than moving on once the 20-working day waiting period has passed.

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tooldle

I’ve just looked at paperwork my solicitor sent to me re IHT. It says HMRC are extremely slow and deal with correspondence in date received order. Estimated wait time to look at correspondence is around 2 months. 

Did you submit IHT forms in advance of the probate application?

HUMBUG

tooldle said:

I’ve just looked at paperwork my solicitor sent to me re IHT. It says HMRC are extremely slow and deal with correspondence in date received order. Estimated wait time to look at correspondence is around 2 months. 

Did you submit IHT forms in advance of the probate application?

Yes, I sent my IHT forms on the 26th Oct 23 and then applied online for Grant Of Probate 6th Dec 23.  I gave them a lot more than the 20 working days before I applied online.  Now HMCTS say they have not received the IHT421 email.

Runner_Duck

The exact same thing happened to my application and I think I've seen other threads saying the same.  First I knew there was an issue was an email after 8 weeks from HMCTS saying they did not have the IHT421 form.  All you can do is chase the HMRC to send it, upload to Sharepoint or whatever they are supposed to do, and once they have confirmed its done, wait a few days and speak to HMCTS to check they now have everything they need.  I was lucky and got a very helpful MMCTS advisor who checked for me. I know it says not to call about probate until 16 weeks is up but a bit of grovelling, and explaining that I did not want to lose the house sale because probate was taking so long sob sob etc. seemed to work. 
Have to say nothing to do with Mother's estate has worked smoothly, everything had something that went wrong and needed corrected, which probably explains why it all takes so long.

HUMBUG

I decided to do a webchat with HMCTS and I am rather shocked that the service seems to be offshore. I don't remember HMRC or HMCTS informing me that private and confidential data is now accessible by offshore third parties. I've removed any confidential data from the transcript like the advisors name and my own.

2024-03-08 12:06:12 [Advisor] Hello, and thanks for contacting HMCTS today. How may I help you?

2024-03-08 12:07:08 [Me] Can you confirm whether you received an email about form IHT421 from the IHT office?

2024-03-08 12:10:03 [Me ] Are you still there?

2024-03-08 12:10:27 [Advisor] I will have to ask you security questions to be able to proceed with this query. Could you please confirm your full name, postcode, the first line of your address and the full name of the deceased.

2024-03-08 12:11:13 [ME ]  XXXX XXXXX XXXXX

2024-03-08 12:14:14 [Me] are you there?

2024-03-08 12:14:32 [Advisor] Please bear with me whilst I check that file.

2024-03-08 12:14:39 [Me] ok

2024-03-08 12:17:34 [Advisor] I am still unable to locate the IHT 421 on the sharepoint

2024-03-08 12:18:45 [Me ] I sent the IHT forms including IHT421 on the 26th October . It has been 4 months and none of you bothered to contact me about this issue . Please explain why?

2024-03-08 12:19:49 [Advisor] The IHT isnt on sharepoint, This is usually added on by HMRC

2024-03-08 12:19:55 [Advisor] You can contact them and ask to add it on

2024-03-08 12:20:57 [Me ] I have tried to contact them but they don't answer the phone. Why aren't HMCTS doing the chasing up ? Why must the customer chase you both up when it is an internal process between your 2 departments?

2024-03-08 12:21:52 [Advisor] We have contacted and emailed them but had not got a response

2024-03-08 12:22:07 [Me ] Can you pleas send me a copy of those emails

2024-03-08 12:22:47 [Advisor] I am sorry but these emails that are sent are internal email. We cannot disclose this

2024-03-08 12:23:27 [Me ] Okay - what date did you send those emails and what date did you try and contact them?

2024-03-08 12:24:21 [Advisor] When the case was examined and stopped in Febuary

2024-03-08 12:26:02 [Me ] So you are absolutely 100% certain you didn't receive any notification IHT421 from the IHT department? Do you have a contact name or email address for the manager of that department?

2024-03-08 12:26:21 [Advisor] Yes we have not received a response

2024-03-08 12:26:52 [Me ] Do you have a contact name for the senior manager of that IHT department?

2024-03-08 12:28:28 [Advisor] We do not sorry just the contact number for HMRC 0300 123 1072

2024-03-08 12:30:24 [Me ] This is utterly disgraceful . I send the IHT forms over 4 months ago , follow the process and waited over 20 days to apply online for Grant of Probate , to now find that your internal processes have broken down . I am left in the dark not knowing what is happening and then 4 months later I find out that nothing has progressed .

2024-03-08 12:31:54 [Me ] I now need to confirm with you that you received my fathers original WILL .

2024-03-08 12:33:34 [Advisor] Yes that has been received

2024-03-08 12:36:19 [Me ] That's a relief , at least something has been done properly. I have no choice now but to raise a high level complaint to Mr Nick Goodwin (CEO HMCTS) and Mr Jim Harra (CEO HMRC) . I suggest you all ensure that you have conducted proper checks to ensure there have been no mistakes because I expect my case to be investigated in some detail.

2024-03-08 12:37:48 [Me ] Many thanks for your help today although I think both your departments are an absolute shambles.

2024-03-08 12:38:00 [Me] Thank you for chatting with us today. If you have any further questions please feel free to contact us again.

HUMBUG

Here is an update and is explained in my formal complaint email sent to the CEOs of HMRC and HMCTS

------------------------------------------

Dear Mr Harra/Mr Goodwin

I was finally able to get through the IHT helpline today and spoke to Mark (from the Nottingham office).  He was not allowed to give me his surname but he seemed very experienced and knew exactly what to do to try and resolve my problem.

1. They did receive all my IHT forms on the 26th Oct 23.

2. They apparently posted a letter to me (not received) stating that form IHT421 had been sent to HMCTS.

3. The form IHT421  was submitted to Sharepoint on the 15th November 23

4.  Mark has resubmitted form IHT421 today while I was on the phone with him . The HMCTS department should receive this at 2pm today.

5. ,Mark has requested a copy of the previous letter to be posted to me.

I am absolutely disgusted with the way I have been treated by HMCTS department if the above is true.

I still want my complaint thoroughly investigated in detail and I demand HMCTS progress Grant Of Probate application with immediate effect.  

I want to know in detail what went wrong and what you will be doing to ensure these sort of issues do not reoccur.
--------------------------------------

Basically, its the blame game going on between 2 depts and is frankly ridiculous. I suspect it's because people haven't been trained enough to ensure they are updating and clicking the right buttons on their computer systems or there is a bug in their systems which means both sides are not seeing the updates being done.

msb1234

HUMBUG said:

I decided to do a webchat with HMCTS and I am rather shocked that the service seems to be offshore. I don't remember HMRC or HMCTS informing me that private and confidential data is now accessible by offshore third parties. I've removed any confidential data from the transcript like the advisors name and my own.

2024-03-08 12:06:12 [Advisor] Hello, and thanks for contacting HMCTS today. How may I help you?

2024-03-08 12:07:08 [Me] Can you confirm whether you received an email about form IHT421 from the IHT office?

2024-03-08 12:10:03 [Me ] Are you still there?

2024-03-08 12:10:27 [Advisor] I will have to ask you security questions to be able to proceed with this query. Could you please confirm your full name, postcode, the first line of your address and the full name of the deceased.

2024-03-08 12:11:13 [ME ]  XXXX XXXXX XXXXX

2024-03-08 12:14:14 [Me] are you there?

2024-03-08 12:14:32 [Advisor] Please bear with me whilst I check that file.

2024-03-08 12:14:39 [Me] ok

2024-03-08 12:17:34 [Advisor] I am still unable to locate the IHT 421 on the sharepoint

2024-03-08 12:18:45 [Me ] I sent the IHT forms including IHT421 on the 26th October . It has been 4 months and none of you bothered to contact me about this issue . Please explain why?

2024-03-08 12:19:49 [Advisor] The IHT isnt on sharepoint, This is usually added on by HMRC

2024-03-08 12:19:55 [Advisor] You can contact them and ask to add it on

2024-03-08 12:20:57 [Me ] I have tried to contact them but they don't answer the phone. Why aren't HMCTS doing the chasing up ? Why must the customer chase you both up when it is an internal process between your 2 departments?

2024-03-08 12:21:52 [Advisor] We have contacted and emailed them but had not got a response

2024-03-08 12:22:07 [Me ] Can you pleas send me a copy of those emails

2024-03-08 12:22:47 [Advisor] I am sorry but these emails that are sent are internal email. We cannot disclose this

2024-03-08 12:23:27 [Me ] Okay - what date did you send those emails and what date did you try and contact them?

2024-03-08 12:24:21 [Advisor] When the case was examined and stopped in Febuary

2024-03-08 12:26:02 [Me ] So you are absolutely 100% certain you didn't receive any notification IHT421 from the IHT department? Do you have a contact name or email address for the manager of that department?

2024-03-08 12:26:21 [Advisor] Yes we have not received a response

2024-03-08 12:26:52 [Me ] Do you have a contact name for the senior manager of that IHT department?

2024-03-08 12:28:28 [Advisor] We do not sorry just the contact number for HMRC 0300 123 1072

2024-03-08 12:30:24 [Me ] This is utterly disgraceful . I send the IHT forms over 4 months ago , follow the process and waited over 20 days to apply online for Grant of Probate , to now find that your internal processes have broken down . I am left in the dark not knowing what is happening and then 4 months later I find out that nothing has progressed .

2024-03-08 12:31:54 [Me ] I now need to confirm with you that you received my fathers original WILL .

2024-03-08 12:33:34 [Advisor] Yes that has been received

2024-03-08 12:36:19 [Me ] That's a relief , at least something has been done properly. I have no choice now but to raise a high level complaint to Mr Nick Goodwin (CEO HMCTS) and Mr Jim Harra (CEO HMRC) . I suggest you all ensure that you have conducted proper checks to ensure there have been no mistakes because I expect my case to be investigated in some detail.

2024-03-08 12:37:48 [Me ] Many thanks for your help today although I think both your departments are an absolute shambles.

2024-03-08 12:38:00 [Me] Thank you for chatting with us today. If you have any further questions please feel free to contact us again.

Whilst I can appreciate that you are frustrated, unfortunately you took that frustration out on someone who has absolutely no influence over the whole probate process. 

HUMBUG

msb1234 said:

HUMBUG said:

I decided to do a webchat with HMCTS and I am rather shocked that the service seems to be offshore. I don't remember HMRC or HMCTS informing me that private and confidential data is now accessible by offshore third parties. I've removed any confidential data from the transcript like the advisors name and my own.

2024-03-08 12:06:12 [Advisor] Hello, and thanks for contacting HMCTS today. How may I help you?

2024-03-08 12:07:08 [Me] Can you confirm whether you received an email about form IHT421 from the IHT office?

2024-03-08 12:10:03 [Me ] Are you still there?

2024-03-08 12:10:27 [Advisor] I will have to ask you security questions to be able to proceed with this query. Could you please confirm your full name, postcode, the first line of your address and the full name of the deceased.

2024-03-08 12:11:13 [ME ]  XXXX XXXXX XXXXX

2024-03-08 12:14:14 [Me] are you there?

2024-03-08 12:14:32 [Advisor] Please bear with me whilst I check that file.

2024-03-08 12:14:39 [Me] ok

2024-03-08 12:17:34 [Advisor] I am still unable to locate the IHT 421 on the sharepoint

2024-03-08 12:18:45 [Me ] I sent the IHT forms including IHT421 on the 26th October . It has been 4 months and none of you bothered to contact me about this issue . Please explain why?

2024-03-08 12:19:49 [Advisor] The IHT isnt on sharepoint, This is usually added on by HMRC

2024-03-08 12:19:55 [Advisor] You can contact them and ask to add it on

2024-03-08 12:20:57 [Me ] I have tried to contact them but they don't answer the phone. Why aren't HMCTS doing the chasing up ? Why must the customer chase you both up when it is an internal process between your 2 departments?

2024-03-08 12:21:52 [Advisor] We have contacted and emailed them but had not got a response

2024-03-08 12:22:07 [Me ] Can you pleas send me a copy of those emails

2024-03-08 12:22:47 [Advisor] I am sorry but these emails that are sent are internal email. We cannot disclose this

2024-03-08 12:23:27 [Me ] Okay - what date did you send those emails and what date did you try and contact them?

2024-03-08 12:24:21 [Advisor] When the case was examined and stopped in Febuary

2024-03-08 12:26:02 [Me ] So you are absolutely 100% certain you didn't receive any notification IHT421 from the IHT department? Do you have a contact name or email address for the manager of that department?

2024-03-08 12:26:21 [Advisor] Yes we have not received a response

2024-03-08 12:26:52 [Me ] Do you have a contact name for the senior manager of that IHT department?

2024-03-08 12:28:28 [Advisor] We do not sorry just the contact number for HMRC 0300 123 1072

2024-03-08 12:30:24 [Me ] This is utterly disgraceful . I send the IHT forms over 4 months ago , follow the process and waited over 20 days to apply online for Grant of Probate , to now find that your internal processes have broken down . I am left in the dark not knowing what is happening and then 4 months later I find out that nothing has progressed .

2024-03-08 12:31:54 [Me ] I now need to confirm with you that you received my fathers original WILL .

2024-03-08 12:33:34 [Advisor] Yes that has been received

2024-03-08 12:36:19 [Me ] That's a relief , at least something has been done properly. I have no choice now but to raise a high level complaint to Mr Nick Goodwin (CEO HMCTS) and Mr Jim Harra (CEO HMRC) . I suggest you all ensure that you have conducted proper checks to ensure there have been no mistakes because I expect my case to be investigated in some detail.

2024-03-08 12:37:48 [Me ] Many thanks for your help today although I think both your departments are an absolute shambles.

2024-03-08 12:38:00 [Me] Thank you for chatting with us today. If you have any further questions please feel free to contact us again.

Whilst I can appreciate that you are frustrated, unfortunately you took that frustration out on someone who has absolutely no influence over the whole probate process. 

They do have some influence because previous posters have said that their Grant Of Probate issues were sorted via webchat. 

I do have an update now but I had to do the chasing around by contacting the IHT office on the 8th Mar 24 (luckily didn't have to wait long to get through to their helpline). 
The IHT office confirm that they received my forms in Oct 23 , sent the form IHT421 to HMCTS on this  'Sharepoint'  system on the 15th Nov 23 .   IHT also claim to have sent me a letter (which I never received) in Nov 23 to confirm that the form IHT421 was sent to HMCTS.  The gentleman I spoke to therefore resubmitted the form IHT421 while I was on the phone and said HMCTS would see it on Sharepoint by 2pm that same day.  He also arranged for a copy of their letter to be posted to me again (not yet received).

I am today trying to get through to webchat again after waiting 30 mins (it said that my estimated time to get through to an advisor was 10 mins ).

Someone has been telling me fibs about my form IHT421 being sent on this Sharepoint system. One dept says it has while the other says no it hasn't. 

I just got through on the webchat , but now they cut me off while investigating my issue to check they have now received my form IHT421 .

Ridiculously poor unacceptable service from these 2  depts and I am within my rights to call them an absolute shambles.

HUMBUG

Just trying again on their webchat system and I'm sure it cut me off because the advisor didn't follow the security check procedure.  He never asked me security questions so I suspect the system timed me out.

Now got through again and he has confirmed receipt of form IHT421 and that my application can now start processing.

So it took 4 months for a simple exchange of my form between their systems but only after I had to intervene.

Crazy amateurish internal systems and processes putting the customer last.

HUMBUG

I've raised a formal complaint via my local MP so hopefully , the 2  CEO's for HMRC and HMCTS will ask one of their senior managers to reply back to me and provide me with details of what went wrong. 

Now , I have previously worked on information exchange on systems before and I don't think the people who use this 'SHAREPOINT'  system are at fault.  I cannot imagine that either dept are lying to me about what they did so I'm blaming their system for the moment. 

This is my 'gut feeling' about what has happened:

1. HMRC do not have a proper manual audit of data they input into this Sharepoint system.
2. The Sharepoint system crashed . 
3. The IT support dept had to restore the system with backup saved data. 
4. This means any data input from the backup date will have been lost.
5. HMRC do not have the capability to reinput the lost data forcing a subset of affected customers to chase them up and have the IHT421 form resubmitted (like I have had to do).

I can guess that there is another system that is telling HMRC users that IHT421 was sent (but in reality hasn't) and everything seems fine and dandy.  All they need to do is conduct an audit check between systems to find anomalies and then run a program to do an automated retransmission.  I don't know why they haven't done so as it would fix some of the delays which the customer is blissfully unaware of, until they get an email 4 months later (from HMCTS) saying form IHT421 not received and for you (the customer) to chase HMRC.

HUMBUG

Update:
6 days after referring my problems to my local MP to escalate to Jim Harra and Nick Goodwin (as per above), I received my Grant of Probate forms in the post.