Section 75/CRA claims with Amex

teflon

I bought a robot vacuum cleaner from Amazon in 2021. After a couple of years of service, it's suddenly stopped navigating around the house (possibly related to a firmware update, but I can't easily prove that) - so became completely useless, six weeks outside of the warranty.

I spoke to the manufacturer, who couldn't offer any help beyond suggesting a factory reset. I then tried Amazon, under the 'must last a reasonable length of time' part of the Consumer Rights Act. Their response was:

As you've had satisfactory use of this product for a period of time exceeding both the manufacturer's warranty period and the typical average life of this product, and since you purchased your product approximately 24 months ago and have used it successfully, please understand that we're unable to offer you a replacement or refund of the replacement value.

(If I'd known the 'typical average life of the product' was that short, I wouldn't have bought it)

So next step was Amex, as I'd bought it on one of their credit cards. They closed my dispute within a day, with a pro-forma 'out of time' letter:

Due to the length of time that has passed since the charge was incurred, the merchant is not required to provide us with the information you have requested. To be fair to both our Cardmembers and our Merchants, we must impose limits on the timeframes that may pass for either party to raise enquiries.

I re-opened the dispute making it clear I wanted to make a Section 75 claim, and after four weeks, they've sent the same letter, with no reference to S75 and making me think they've treated it as a chargeback again.

Am I right in thinking that under S75, the response from the merchant is irrelevant? After all, the retailer could have gone bust in the interim, so there might not be anyone to claim back from.

Might I get somewhere if I persist with Amex, or am I howling at the moon here?

born_again

You need to prove to Amex that there has been a breach of contract or misrepresentation.

CliveOfIndia

As above, S75 is not a get-out-of jail-free card that covers every eventuality.  It simply gives you protection where a supplier has breached the terms of their contract with you.

From what you've said in your original post, it would appear that no such breach of contract has occurred - unfair as it may seem.

I think the only avenue you may be able to explore is whether it could be argued that they've fallen foul of the CRA (products lasting a reasonable length of time).  But even then, I fear you may be on to a hiding to nothing in this particular scenario.

Nasqueron

Per the last 2 comments, S75 isn't a magic wand where the bank just refunds you for something at the drop of a hat. You bought a product, it lasted over 2 years, and now has an issue - so you have to follow the steps for an S75 including, for example, commissioning an independent engineer report to show the thing was faulty from the start or had a design issue. You could also look at forums and see if there are reports of a similar fault with firmware updates and any solutions offered

teflon

thanks all - I wasn't expecting them to roll over and just pay up, but think I was hoping for a bit more engagement from Amex with the S75 process, and acknowledgement from them that 2 years is (or isn't) a reasonable amount of time for such a product to last, as per the CRA. 

Where would one even find an independent engineer to commission a report, and would the cost end up outweighing any refund?

noitsnotme

Even if you can get a report that proves it was an inherent fault, you wouldn’t be due a new for old replacement or a full refund.  You’ve had 2 years use and would only be owed the value of a 2 year old vacuum.  How much is a fully working 2 year old second hand one going for (have a look on eBay)?  If it’s one of these multi-branded Chinese types, it may not be worth much at all after 2 years.  Even a bigger brand could have lost a lot of value after that much time.

CliveOfIndia

teflon said:

Where would one even find an independent engineer to commission a report, and would the cost end up outweighing any refund?

It's fairly common for a card company to request an independent expert report to verify that a product is "faulty" (however that may be defined).  After all, if the claim is upheld then they're paying you out of their own pocket (different to a Chargeback, whereby it's the supplier who reimburses you).

If your S75 claim is successful then the cost of the report would be refunded to you.  If it's unsuccessful then you won't get any refund.  So you'd need to be reasonably confident that you have a decent chance of winning the claim - which, in this particular instance, may be flaky at best.

Nasqueron

teflon said:

thanks all - I wasn't expecting them to roll over and just pay up, but think I was hoping for a bit more engagement from Amex with the S75 process, and acknowledgement from them that 2 years is (or isn't) a reasonable amount of time for such a product to last, as per the CRA. 

Where would one even find an independent engineer to commission a report, and would the cost end up outweighing any refund?

The problem is that "reasonable" is a wishy washy term - if you spent £100k on a car that went pop after 15 months, most people would say that was not reasonable. A £200 vacuum that had regular use for over 2 years is not worth a £200 refund. You would argue that the vacuum should last 3 or 4 years or whatever, the manufacturer believes a 2 year life is not unreasonable. 

As you are asking for AmEx to refund you out of their pockets, you need to show why it was defective and not reasonable use. I don't know where you would find an engineer - you would need to look into that. As I said, check forums or amazon reviews and see if anyone has any fixes for this 

If you commission an engineer report and they say there is an inherent fault, AmEx are more likely to refund it and yes you would get some of the money back. If you spend it and they say it's just age/use then you would lose the money.

As above though, you would not get a full refund after 2 years due to the use - the depreciation is such that you might get a sum around 25-30% of the purchase value

DullGreyGuy

Nasqueron said:
As above though, you would not get a full refund after 2 years due to the use - the depreciation is such that you might get a sum around 25-30% of the purchase value

The retailer, and therefore the bank too, are entitled to reduce a refund to reflect the use received from the goods to the date of the fault. This is a separate thing to depreciation which is about loss of value over time. There have been cases where someone bought something (eg a paddling pool) on Black Friday sales and obviously got no use out of it until the summer when they discovered it was punctured on the first attempt to use it. The item will have depreciated as a now secondhand paddling pool but would be entitled to a full refund because they've had no use from it. 


With AmEx you can only raise a "dispute", they will decide if it should be processed as a chargeback or a S75 however clearly if you are time blocked from the former they should then consider it under the later. 

You did buy the item from Amazon themselves and not an Amazon Marketplace seller? If it's via marketplace then S75 will fail. 

born_again

teflon said:

thanks all - I wasn't expecting them to roll over and just pay up, but think I was hoping for a bit more engagement from Amex with the S75 process, and acknowledgement from them that 2 years is (or isn't) a reasonable amount of time for such a product to last, as per the CRA. 

Where would one even find an independent engineer to commission a report, and would the cost end up outweighing any refund?

It is up to you to prove your case, so T/C etc & the proof of breech of contract. As this is coming out of Amex pockets.


Take it to a local vacuum cleaner repair company & see if they will do a report.