Reclaiming uni fees after withdrawal - PhD level (self funded)

Burnsie1983

I am studying a self-funded professional doctorate (equivalent to a PhD).

One of the challenges around this level of study is managing upwards, specifically your supervisors. From early on in this project I have been dissatisfied with the response times from my supervisors. This included COVID times when I pretty much heard nothing from them… but of course still had to pay my full tuition fees (yes I could access the university systems, but I had just started my project and needed guidance on how to start!).

This level of study is essentially continuous. Unlike a typical undergraduate or postgraduate degree, you do not pay for the course as a whole (i.e. a MSc might be 12k all in)… you pay for the year… the more years it takes you to complete the more you pay!

I am hoping to have my final data collected by spring… so in the next few months (just waiting for ethics approval) 

However, despite numerous emails over the months/years, the feedback from my supervisors on my written work is limited. The best example of this - I submitted a chapter for them to review in December 2022. Two of my three supervisors have reviewed it, at which point I made corrections and submitted it to my lead supervisor in May 2023... And I have still not had this feedback, nor any feedback on any chapter that I've written! I do not even know if I am writing at the correct level to pass the course! 

As mentioned, one of the idiosyncrasies of this level of study is that you have to manage upwards, IE the relationship with your supervisors! If I was to officially complain about their lack of feedback, it would probably ruin the working relationship… so this is a catch 22 situation. I can just sit here and pay my monthly fees not hearing anything back, or I could potentially withdraw and approach another university to see if they would help me continue my study.  

At this point, I have not approached any other source of advice (although will be approaching the student’s union). I currently work for a different university, and so have some awareness of their responsibilities to learners. I do not necessarily plan to use my qualification (if I ever achieve it) so potentially do not need to worry about annoying the lead supervisor who is an internationally renowned researcher in my field.

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience of trying to reclaim fees from a level 8 qualification due to the lack of engagement and feedback from supervisors? 

Grumpy_chap

Burnsie1983 said:

I am studying a self-funded professional doctorate (equivalent to a PhD).

One of the challenges around this level of study is managing upwards, specifically your supervisors. From early on in this project I have been dissatisfied with the response times from my supervisors. This included COVID times when I pretty much heard nothing from them… but of course still had to pay my full tuition fees (yes I could access the university systems, but I had just started my project and needed guidance on how to start!).

This level of study is essentially continuous. Unlike a typical undergraduate or postgraduate degree, you do not pay for the course as a whole (i.e. a MSc might be 12k all in)… you pay for the year… the more years it takes you to complete the more you pay!

I am hoping to have my final data collected by spring… so in the next few months (just waiting for ethics approval) 

However, despite numerous emails over the months/years, the feedback from my supervisors on my written work is limited. The best example of this - I submitted a chapter for them to review in December 2022. Two of my three supervisors have reviewed it, at which point I made corrections and submitted it to my lead supervisor in May 2023... And I have still not had this feedback, nor any feedback on any chapter that I've written! I do not even know if I am writing at the correct level to pass the course! 

As mentioned, one of the idiosyncrasies of this level of study is that you have to manage upwards, IE the relationship with your supervisors! If I was to officially complain about their lack of feedback, it would probably ruin the working relationship… so this is a catch 22 situation. I can just sit here and pay my monthly fees not hearing anything back, or I could potentially withdraw and approach another university to see if they would help me continue my study.  

At this point, I have not approached any other source of advice (although will be approaching the student’s union). I currently work for a different university, and so have some awareness of their responsibilities to learners. I do not necessarily plan to use my qualification (if I ever achieve it) so potentially do not need to worry about annoying the lead supervisor who is an internationally renowned researcher in my field.

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience of trying to reclaim fees from a level 8 qualification due to the lack of engagement and feedback from supervisors? 

AIUI, studying at Doctorate level, you are meant to be largely self-moderating and able to assess your work against the best of published articles.  
How do you rate your output against that metric?

I understand your concern about lack of feedback, but is the most likely scenario that your output warrants little comment because it is of a suitable standard?

With regard to "managing upwards", do you simply submit and chase via e-mail?  That is all you mention.
You cannot submit your thesis, or elements of it, and expect it to be marked like homework in the same way as a high-school assignment.
How frequently do you attend the University and make personal contact with the Supervisors?
Are you working to foster the relationships to work to your advantage? 
This might mean getting involved in whatever the interests are that the Supervisors have. 
Attending presentations / seminars that the Supervisors lead so that you can engage with them and massage their egos.

I can't advise about the reclaiming fees, but I'd suggest that is a last resort as you'd be throwing away the past four years as well.  Have you raised concerns previously, or would this all come as a shock to the University?

Again, if you can foster positive relationships with the Supervisors, it becomes easier to mention things in a more casual way about feedback. 
For example, a mention that you'd really appreciate input on part XYZ of the latest paper as you are not sure you worded that most succinctly for a non-specialist reader and wondered if there is any specific comment on that aspect...
Do you even know that the submissions have been received by the Supervisor that is not responding?  Or are you simply sending the e-mail and relying on that?  What if the e-mail message exceeds mailbox limits?

Something does seem rather odd, though.  Usually, all the Professors are keen to support students (at any level) with their papers for submission as the Professors get to piggy-back as co-authors and, for them to maintain their reputation as an internationally renowned researcher, it is all about publication count.

Burnsie1983

Grumpy_chap said:

Burnsie1983 said:

I am studying a self-funded professional doctorate (equivalent to a PhD).

One of the challenges around this level of study is managing upwards, specifically your supervisors. From early on in this project I have been dissatisfied with the response times from my supervisors. This included COVID times when I pretty much heard nothing from them… but of course still had to pay my full tuition fees (yes I could access the university systems, but I had just started my project and needed guidance on how to start!).

This level of study is essentially continuous. Unlike a typical undergraduate or postgraduate degree, you do not pay for the course as a whole (i.e. a MSc might be 12k all in)… you pay for the year… the more years it takes you to complete the more you pay!

I am hoping to have my final data collected by spring… so in the next few months (just waiting for ethics approval) 

However, despite numerous emails over the months/years, the feedback from my supervisors on my written work is limited. The best example of this - I submitted a chapter for them to review in December 2022. Two of my three supervisors have reviewed it, at which point I made corrections and submitted it to my lead supervisor in May 2023... And I have still not had this feedback, nor any feedback on any chapter that I've written! I do not even know if I am writing at the correct level to pass the course! 

As mentioned, one of the idiosyncrasies of this level of study is that you have to manage upwards, IE the relationship with your supervisors! If I was to officially complain about their lack of feedback, it would probably ruin the working relationship… so this is a catch 22 situation. I can just sit here and pay my monthly fees not hearing anything back, or I could potentially withdraw and approach another university to see if they would help me continue my study.  

At this point, I have not approached any other source of advice (although will be approaching the student’s union). I currently work for a different university, and so have some awareness of their responsibilities to learners. I do not necessarily plan to use my qualification (if I ever achieve it) so potentially do not need to worry about annoying the lead supervisor who is an internationally renowned researcher in my field.

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience of trying to reclaim fees from a level 8 qualification due to the lack of engagement and feedback from supervisors? 

AIUI, studying at Doctorate level, you are meant to be largely self-moderating and able to assess your work against the best of published articles.  
How do you rate your output against that metric?

I understand your concern about lack of feedback, but is the most likely scenario that your output warrants little comment because it is of a suitable standard?

With regard to "managing upwards", do you simply submit and chase via e-mail?  That is all you mention.
You cannot submit your thesis, or elements of it, and expect it to be marked like homework in the same way as a high-school assignment.
How frequently do you attend the University and make personal contact with the Supervisors?
Are you working to foster the relationships to work to your advantage? 
This might mean getting involved in whatever the interests are that the Supervisors have. 
Attending presentations / seminars that the Supervisors lead so that you can engage with them and massage their egos.

I can't advise about the reclaiming fees, but I'd suggest that is a last resort as you'd be throwing away the past four years as well.  Have you raised concerns previously, or would this all come as a shock to the University?

Again, if you can foster positive relationships with the Supervisors, it becomes easier to mention things in a more casual way about feedback. 
For example, a mention that you'd really appreciate input on part XYZ of the latest paper as you are not sure you worded that most succinctly for a non-specialist reader and wondered if there is any specific comment on that aspect...
Do you even know that the submissions have been received by the Supervisor that is not responding?  Or are you simply sending the e-mail and relying on that?  What if the e-mail message exceeds mailbox limits?

Something does seem rather odd, though.  Usually, all the Professors are keen to support students (at any level) with their papers for submission as the Professors get to piggy-back as co-authors and, for them to maintain their reputation as an internationally renowned researcher, it is all about publication count.

Thank you for your considered reply

I would add that I am a distance learning student... So I am not on campus to 'pop-in' etc, nor am I using their facilities such as laboratories.

I am plight and cordial on all my email correspondence, which again is potentially some of the issue... But I should not necessarily have to either big them up or be more firm in my requests.

I believe that I am being penalised for being a distance learning student, and I assume that part of the delay is due to the work pressures placed upon the academics given the issues within higher education. It is the university, I believe, that cannot offer the product.

Whilst I agree that level 8 students should be self-sustaining, when academics have stated on numerous occasions how they would feedback on the work, You would expect them to honour that process. For example, one of my chapters. The lead supervisor said they would get back to me before Christmas...

They are plight and helpful when I meet them via video meetings etc. I have broached this subject in these meetings where they replied that they did not want to hold me up so would get work back to me. ASAP... However, since January I have chased probably three times, simply asking for dates for when I I could expect work back. Open some of these emails I also offer an update on my progress... This aspect is sometimes reply to so I am sure that they have read the email.

Okell

Do you mean "polite"?

bluebirdy

Hi. Academic and supervisor here. Awaiting feedback since May 2023 is not really acceptable, even if you’re on a part time professional doctorate. IME ProfDocs can fall between the cracks for all kinds of reasons however and as you acknowledge, many unis are under a lot of pressure right now.

The university may well have a document setting out expectations for supervision so I’d seek that out first. There may well be an academic lead responsible for PhD programmes overall (called something like Dean of PG Research committee or similar) so you could contact them for advice.

You probably do have grounds for formal complaint and possibly refund but if you want to maintain the relationship/supervision (and there may not be other suitable supervisors) then a different approach may be preferable.

Often there are misunderstandings about expectations and supervisors may be expecting something different of you also. Could you also ask for a meeting to reset expectations and create a clear learning plan where expectations, timescales on all sides are agreed?

Burnsie1983

bluebirdy said:

Hi. Academic and supervisor here. Awaiting feedback since May 2023 is not really acceptable, even if you’re on a part time professional doctorate. IME ProfDocs can fall between the cracks for all kinds of reasons however and as you acknowledge, many unis are under a lot of pressure right now.

The university may well have a document setting out expectations for supervision so I’d seek that out first. There may well be an academic lead responsible for PhD programmes overall (called something like Dean of PG Research committee or similar) so you could contact them for advice.

You probably do have grounds for formal complaint and possibly refund but if you want to maintain the relationship/supervision (and there may not be other suitable supervisors) then a different approach may be preferable.

Often there are misunderstandings about expectations and supervisors may be expecting something different of you also. Could you also ask for a meeting to reset expectations and create a clear learning plan where expectations, timescales on all sides are agreed?

Do you wanna be mine too 

I did raise the issue with the pgr lead a couple a times a few years ago. They have left the uni anyhow.. 

On that point, out of the 3 I have, one left the uni and the others ain't working at the mo

I did looked for the handbook etc, but it's not great. Suppose I should be able to find the office programme specs/regulations. I believe they need to be accessible 

Ectophile

On reading your post, my immediate reaction was: THREE supervisors!  What do you need three for?

I only had one.  It's much easier to talk to one person to discuss with them what to do next.  Otherwise, it's management by committee.

Is there any chance of dropping two of them and keeping whoever is around most often?

SiliconChip

Ectophile said:

On reading your post, my immediate reaction was: THREE supervisors!  What do you need three for?

I only had one.  It's much easier to talk to one person to discuss with them what to do next.  Otherwise, it's management by committee.

Is there any chance of dropping two of them and keeping whoever is around most often?

I was unsure of the process for Professional Doctorate study so I did a search and had a look at what the Open University's website had to say about what they do. As it happens they also provide 3 supervisors, 2 academic and 1 pastoral. If the university that the OP is studying at follows the same procedure then it would seem sensible to contact the pastoral supervise to question what is going wrong. If that's not the case then escalating it the head of department for the lead supervisor might be the best approach (of course, if the lead supervisor is the head of department then it'll probably have to go higher still).

https://www.open.ac.uk/postgraduate/research-degrees/degrees-we-offer/professional-doctorates

stripling

I don't know what your research is but are you publishing in journals or making other steps to up your profile in your field? Are you going to conferences and making contact with fellow postgrads in the broad area of your studies?

PhDs can be quite isolating and for both pastoral and academic reasons you need to be proactive about getting involved with others (not referring to your supervisors here). 

Having multiple supervisors is fairly normal, often a PhD may span more than one subject and input is needed across the field.

Your supervisors should be interacting with you and it is unsatisfactory if they are not. You do need advice and support but despite the shift to 'students as consumers', (the ruin of academia), it's not really as simple as a 'consumer complaint'. 

Try and get 'discrete' advice without triggering a drama at this point. It may be that you need to change a supervisor but choose your route carefully. 

There's some great academic circles on Twitter/X - it might be better if you keep your handle unidentifiable - but follow academics in your field, at your academic institution or similar and start networking. You can't burst out dissing your supervisor but you can after building a few academic followers, ask general Qs such as: "PhD students how much supervision is good supervision and how little is neglect"? 

I hope you get this sorted. A PhD is hard work and can be a solitary task but it is an important part of your life - be proactive in making it the best you can. Best of luck.