Should the triple lock be scrapped in the 6 March Budget?

michaels

Yes it should be scrapped

stripling said:

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

"the richest 1% of Britons hold more wealth than 70 per cent of Britons, while the four richest Britons have more wealth than 20 million Britons." [Oxfam 2023] 

"The UK has undergone a wealth boom in recent decades, which has continued even while earnings and incomes have stagnated. But official data has struggled to capture these gains, and misses £800bn of assets held by the very wealthiest households in Britain.” [Resolution Foundation 2021] 




Wealth in Great Britain is even more unequally divided than income. In 2020, the ONS calculated that the richest 10% of households hold 43% of all wealth. The poorest 50%, by contrast, own just 9%. More than that, for the UK as a whole, the WID found that the top 0.1% had share of total wealth double between 1984 and 2013, reaching 9%. [Equality Trust 2023]

I always call Britain neo-feudal but I'll spare you my land owning graphs. [😁] 

I haven't tackled corporate wealth and tax avoidance or 'rationalisation' but that's another strand of the inequality and tax discussion. 

Until we tackle this wealth and taxes stuff some of which requires international regulation not just British, we're a bit stuffed. For example, the entire offshore/tax haven network needs to be either forced into transparency or ended. But that's a wider discussion than state pensions so I will shut up.  

Interesting discussion with some interesting contributions on both sides of the debate. 

So based on your chart, the Tories have gone some way to reduce the increase in income inequality seen under the last labour government.  Funny you don't see Labour supporters congratulating the Tories on this.....

westv

No it should be kept

BlackKnightMonty said:

Linton said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

artyboy said:

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

but for mass affluent families on a few hundred thou' a year, it can feel like a pretty hostile place sometimes, given their relative contribution to society.

So true! Any conversation with average earners descends into “pay more tax!” despite the fact you already are paying double their entire wage in tax each year!

BlackKnightMonty said:

MarzipanCrumble said:

I would far rather pay higher taxation and have public services that work. 

I already pay over £50k a year in income tax and NI Alone. And services/benefits received nearly zero. I’m not sure if I want to pay anymore if I’m honest.

I mean, I’d like for that amount of tax to not have as many pot holes to avoid, or crumbling schools to dodge, or A&E waiting lists measured in hours rather than days.

 Doesn't that say more about the inequities in income than the inequities in tax?  If the income was more evenly spread then so would be the spread of contributions.

For sure incomes have stagnated. But there are a lot of micky mouse jobs being done. (I’m an engineer who designs/invents/builds things).

Every job is important to somebody

BlackKnightMonty

Yes it should be scrapped

westv said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

Linton said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

artyboy said:

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

but for mass affluent families on a few hundred thou' a year, it can feel like a pretty hostile place sometimes, given their relative contribution to society.

So true! Any conversation with average earners descends into “pay more tax!” despite the fact you already are paying double their entire wage in tax each year!

BlackKnightMonty said:

MarzipanCrumble said:

I would far rather pay higher taxation and have public services that work. 

I already pay over £50k a year in income tax and NI Alone. And services/benefits received nearly zero. I’m not sure if I want to pay anymore if I’m honest.

I mean, I’d like for that amount of tax to not have as many pot holes to avoid, or crumbling schools to dodge, or A&E waiting lists measured in hours rather than days.

 Doesn't that say more about the inequities in income than the inequities in tax?  If the income was more evenly spread then so would be the spread of contributions.

For sure incomes have stagnated. But there are a lot of micky mouse jobs being done. (I’m an engineer who designs/invents/builds things).

Every job is important to somebody

Perhaps. But not all are of equal value.

german_keeper

BlackKnightMonty said:

Linton said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

artyboy said:

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

but for mass affluent families on a few hundred thou' a year, it can feel like a pretty hostile place sometimes, given their relative contribution to society.

So true! Any conversation with average earners descends into “pay more tax!” despite the fact you already are paying double their entire wage in tax each year!

BlackKnightMonty said:

MarzipanCrumble said:

I would far rather pay higher taxation and have public services that work. 

I already pay over £50k a year in income tax and NI Alone. And services/benefits received nearly zero. I’m not sure if I want to pay anymore if I’m honest.

I mean, I’d like for that amount of tax to not have as many pot holes to avoid, or crumbling schools to dodge, or A&E waiting lists measured in hours rather than days.

 Doesn't that say more about the inequities in income than the inequities in tax?  If the income was more evenly spread then so would be the spread of contributions.

For sure incomes have stagnated. But there are a lot of micky mouse jobs being done. (I’m an engineer who designs/invents/builds things).

What an incredibly disrespectful comment. What exactly would you describe as a "micky mouse" job?

stripling

No it should be kept

michaels said:

stripling said:

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

"the richest 1% of Britons hold more wealth than 70 per cent of Britons, while the four richest Britons have more wealth than 20 million Britons." [Oxfam 2023] 

"The UK has undergone a wealth boom in recent decades, which has continued even while earnings and incomes have stagnated. But official data has struggled to capture these gains, and misses £800bn of assets held by the very wealthiest households in Britain.” [Resolution Foundation 2021] 




Wealth in Great Britain is even more unequally divided than income. In 2020, the ONS calculated that the richest 10% of households hold 43% of all wealth. The poorest 50%, by contrast, own just 9%. More than that, for the UK as a whole, the WID found that the top 0.1% had share of total wealth double between 1984 and 2013, reaching 9%. [Equality Trust 2023]

I always call Britain neo-feudal but I'll spare you my land owning graphs. [😁] 

I haven't tackled corporate wealth and tax avoidance or 'rationalisation' but that's another strand of the inequality and tax discussion. 

Until we tackle this wealth and taxes stuff some of which requires international regulation not just British, we're a bit stuffed. For example, the entire offshore/tax haven network needs to be either forced into transparency or ended. But that's a wider discussion than state pensions so I will shut up.  

Interesting discussion with some interesting contributions on both sides of the debate. 

So based on your chart, the Tories have gone some way to reduce the increase in income inequality seen under the last labour government.  Funny you don't see Labour supporters congratulating the Tories on this.....

Wrong! You can't look at 'income' by itself. Look at the assets and wealth too including how wealth is hidden. The distribution is horrendous.

BTW there's nothing 'party political' in any of my posts or any of the other interesting posts on either side of the debate.  This has been a fascinating thread. So don't jump in and start banging that drum please.

I can point fingers at all the parties because with a few fine tweaks they all sing from the same hymn sheet.  Politics is messy everywhere but in Britain it is a self-interested, short term thinking, absurdly 'free market' [🙄], disaster. 

stripling

No it should be kept

BlackKnightMonty said:

booneruk said:

Linton said:

Doesn't that say more about the inequities in income than the inequities in tax?  If the income was more evenly spread then so would be the spread of contributions.

But where does that stop? A situation where everyone earned the same wouldn't be a utopia, I'd imagine. There'd be no motivation to take risks, create wealth etc.

Doctorate in Engineering here; kick started multiple businesses, worked in academia, government, industry; across multiple sectors, sat on executive boards.

In my book the rewards come from hard work, having some risk appetite, and spotting a good opportunity and jumping on board.

If you’ve done all that and are still on £30k then you can feel hard done by…

 Your doctorate and the work you can do with it is valuable but without the bin men, nurses, cleaners, builders, train drivers, etc., your doctorate wouldn't get you too far.  You need them as much as they may need you. All work is valuable but how people work and for what level of payment and satisfaction, has changed. As has the gap between the very top and the bottom. 

What has changed is there were no zero hours contracts previously and your education was probably at a time when university was free. Social housing housed a substantial portion of the population who spent less of their earnings on rent and had security of tenure. Local councils used to offer state-backed mortgages and run a range of services with expertise.  Secure housing and healthcare has a positive impact on productivity.

Privatisation didn't only result in the sell-off of social housing, for example, it lost a big wedge of municipal expertise which is then compensated for by.... expensive consultants.  Private equity asset strips companies and runs them on almost empty. The workforce then suffer horrible terms and conditions until they get laid off. Insecurity rules, squeezed wages are propped up by what is effectively a subsidy to employers called Universal Credit. 

Skill upgrading and high quality training used to be low cost in colleges of further education. Tradesmen/women don't have access to that now. Britain outsourced the cost of training onto other country's workforces - hence the influx of eastern european builders for example. We don't have the skilled workforce anymore. 

Taxes used to pay for public services but now what's left of those services are outsourced repeatedly with  each company skimming a profit off the next one's contract. The 'big' company is probably 'offshore' and paying little or no tax in the UK. Eventually the bubble pops, the emperor's new clothes go from threadbare to rotten.  

Then we have debates about whether one of the lowest state pensions in Europe should increase by a few quid a week....  🤷🏻‍♀️

BlackKnightMonty

Yes it should be scrapped

german_keeper said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

Linton said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

artyboy said:

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

but for mass affluent families on a few hundred thou' a year, it can feel like a pretty hostile place sometimes, given their relative contribution to society.

So true! Any conversation with average earners descends into “pay more tax!” despite the fact you already are paying double their entire wage in tax each year!

BlackKnightMonty said:

MarzipanCrumble said:

I would far rather pay higher taxation and have public services that work. 

I already pay over £50k a year in income tax and NI Alone. And services/benefits received nearly zero. I’m not sure if I want to pay anymore if I’m honest.

I mean, I’d like for that amount of tax to not have as many pot holes to avoid, or crumbling schools to dodge, or A&E waiting lists measured in hours rather than days.

 Doesn't that say more about the inequities in income than the inequities in tax?  If the income was more evenly spread then so would be the spread of contributions.

For sure incomes have stagnated. But there are a lot of micky mouse jobs being done. (I’m an engineer who designs/invents/builds things).

What an incredibly disrespectful comment. What exactly would you describe as a "micky mouse" job?

stripling said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

booneruk said:

Linton said:

Doesn't that say more about the inequities in income than the inequities in tax?  If the income was more evenly spread then so would be the spread of contributions.

But where does that stop? A situation where everyone earned the same wouldn't be a utopia, I'd imagine. There'd be no motivation to take risks, create wealth etc.

Doctorate in Engineering here; kick started multiple businesses, worked in academia, government, industry; across multiple sectors, sat on executive boards.

In my book the rewards come from hard work, having some risk appetite, and spotting a good opportunity and jumping on board.

If you’ve done all that and are still on £30k then you can feel hard done by…

 Your doctorate and the work you can do with it is valuable but without the bin men, nurses, cleaners, builders, train drivers, etc., your doctorate wouldn't get you too far.  You need them as much as they may need you. All work is valuable but how people work and for what level of payment and satisfaction, has changed. As has the gap between the very top and the bottom. 

What has changed is there were no zero hours contracts previously and your education was probably at a time when university was free. Social housing housed a substantial portion of the population who spent less of their earnings on rent and had security of tenure. Local councils used to offer state-backed mortgages and run a range of services with expertise.  Secure housing and healthcare has a positive impact on productivity.

Privatisation didn't only result in the sell-off of social housing, for example, it lost a big wedge of municipal expertise which is then compensated for by.... expensive consultants.  Private equity asset strips companies and runs them on almost empty. The workforce then suffer horrible terms and conditions until they get laid off. Insecurity rules, squeezed wages are propped up by what is effectively a subsidy to employers called Universal Credit. 

Skill upgrading and high quality training used to be low cost in colleges of further education. Tradesmen/women don't have access to that now. Britain outsourced the cost of training onto other country's workforces - hence the influx of eastern european builders for example. We don't have the skilled workforce anymore. 

Taxes used to pay for public services but now what's left of those services are outsourced repeatedly with  each company skimming a profit off the next one's contract. The 'big' company is probably 'offshore' and paying little or no tax in the UK. Eventually the bubble pops, the emperor's new clothes go from threadbare to rotten.  

Then we have debates about whether one of the lowest state pensions in Europe should increase by a few quid a week....  🤷🏻‍♀️

There is a general acceptance of mediocrity in this country. We aren’t going to get out of this low productivity, high benefits, low growth, lacklustre achievement death spiral without intelligent effort and focus. The green deal from Labour, though flawed, offers some purposeful vision for the economy.

westv

No it should be kept

Zero hours contract aren't a new thing. It was called casual labour previously.

LightFlare

No it should be kept

I voted no on the proviso that all public sector workers get the same annual uplift

If pensioners and unemployed/sick need or deserve the extra to exist, so does everyone else. As it is, its just the everyone else that suffers economically

Costs dont just rise for a select few 

Otherwise, scrap the triple lock and give them the same rise that public sector workers receive (and at the same time of year - usually Sept/Oct for April uplifts). After all, its all coming from the same place and funded by the same people.

westv

No it should be kept

LightFlare said:

I voted no on the proviso that all public sector workers get the same annual uplift

If pensioners and unemployed/sick need or deserve the extra to exist, so does everyone else. As it is, its just the everyone else that suffers economically

Costs dont just rise for a select few 

Otherwise, scrap the triple lock and give them the same rise that public sector workers receive (and at the same time of year - usually Sept/Oct for April uplifts). After all, its all coming from the same place and funded by the same people.

But, say, 2% of £11k is a lot less than 2%: of, say, £30k