Should the triple lock be scrapped in the 6 March Budget?

BlackKnightMonty

Yes it should be scrapped

westv said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

Linton said:

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

Yes but the working poor pay a higher % of their income on NI, VAT and council tax .

Better in my view to judge the situation on income after tax rather than on tax taken.

But any and all taxes they might pay are more than paid back in direct benefits and wider services received.

An average wage of £30k pays just over £5k in Income Tax and NI. That does’t even cover the cost of one £7.5k secondary school place.

A bit like the SP though. They get the benefit for 5 years but contribute for 40.

There is no net contribution though. That’s the whole point.

A minority of households make a net contribution.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/theeffectsoftaxesandbenefitsonhouseholdincome/financialyearending2022

stripling

No it should be kept

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

"the richest 1% of Britons hold more wealth than 70 per cent of Britons, while the four richest Britons have more wealth than 20 million Britons." [Oxfam 2023] 

"The UK has undergone a wealth boom in recent decades, which has continued even while earnings and incomes have stagnated. But official data has struggled to capture these gains, and misses £800bn of assets held by the very wealthiest households in Britain.” [Resolution Foundation 2021] 




Wealth in Great Britain is even more unequally divided than income. In 2020, the ONS calculated that the richest 10% of households hold 43% of all wealth. The poorest 50%, by contrast, own just 9%. More than that, for the UK as a whole, the WID found that the top 0.1% had share of total wealth double between 1984 and 2013, reaching 9%. [Equality Trust 2023]

I always call Britain neo-feudal but I'll spare you my land owning graphs. [😁] 

I haven't tackled corporate wealth and tax avoidance or 'rationalisation' but that's another strand of the inequality and tax discussion. 

Until we tackle this wealth and taxes stuff some of which requires international regulation not just British, we're a bit stuffed. For example, the entire offshore/tax haven network needs to be either forced into transparency or ended. But that's a wider discussion than state pensions so I will shut up.  

Interesting discussion with some interesting contributions on both sides of the debate. 

westv

No it should be kept

BlackKnightMonty said:

westv said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

Linton said:

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

Yes but the working poor pay a higher % of their income on NI, VAT and council tax .

Better in my view to judge the situation on income after tax rather than on tax taken.

But any and all taxes they might pay are more than paid back in direct benefits and wider services received.

An average wage of £30k pays just over £5k in Income Tax and NI. That does’t even cover the cost of one £7.5k secondary school place.

A bit like the SP though. They get the benefit for 5 years but contribute for 40.

There is no net contribution though. That’s the whole point.

A minority of households make a net contribution.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/theeffectsoftaxesandbenefitsonhouseholdincome/financialyearending2022

But that looks at just one year. 

MK62

MattMattMattUK said:

The VAT claim has been debunked many times, as "the poor" spend most of their income on rent and food they generally spend very little on goods which attract VAT. Yes, if one takes a headline figure it can appear that they do spend more on VAT, but when one delves into the detail it becomes very clear that there is somewhat of a statistical anomaly created by the wealthy with zero income in one year living off existing funds (loss on trading etc.).

Not according to the ONS.......in 2022 (latest available report) the poorest quintile paid 28.3% of their income on indirect taxes (of which VAT is the biggest component), whereas the richest quintile paid 9%

The richest fifth of people paid 1.9 times more in indirect taxes (£9,000) than the poorest fifth (£4,800) in FYE 2022. However, richer households pay a smaller proportion of their disposable income on indirect taxes (9.0%) than the poorest fifth (28.3%). As such, indirect taxes increased income inequality by 3.5 percentage points as measured by the Gini coefficient.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/theeffectsoftaxesandbenefitsonhouseholdincome/financialyearending2022

BlackKnightMonty

Yes it should be scrapped

westv said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

westv said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

Linton said:

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

Yes but the working poor pay a higher % of their income on NI, VAT and council tax .

Better in my view to judge the situation on income after tax rather than on tax taken.

But any and all taxes they might pay are more than paid back in direct benefits and wider services received.

An average wage of £30k pays just over £5k in Income Tax and NI. That does’t even cover the cost of one £7.5k secondary school place.

A bit like the SP though. They get the benefit for 5 years but contribute for 40.

There is no net contribution though. That’s the whole point.

A minority of households make a net contribution.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/theeffectsoftaxesandbenefitsonhouseholdincome/financialyearending2022

But that looks at just one year. 

It’s a similar picture for previous years.

The page has links to older data going back 10+ years.

It’s gradually shifted from circa 45% net benefiters to +50% over the last decade.

I think that part of this is a demographic shift. The other is stagnant wages.

Linton

BlackKnightMonty said:

artyboy said:

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

but for mass affluent families on a few hundred thou' a year, it can feel like a pretty hostile place sometimes, given their relative contribution to society.

So true! Any conversation with average earners descends into “pay more tax!” despite the fact you already are paying double their entire wage in tax each year!

BlackKnightMonty said:

MarzipanCrumble said:

I would far rather pay higher taxation and have public services that work. 

I already pay over £50k a year in income tax and NI Alone. And services/benefits received nearly zero. I’m not sure if I want to pay anymore if I’m honest.

I mean, I’d like for that amount of tax to not have as many pot holes to avoid, or crumbling schools to dodge, or A&E waiting lists measured in hours rather than days.

 Doesn't that say more about the inequities in income than the inequities in tax?  If the income was more evenly spread then so would be the spread of contributions.

booneruk

Linton said:

Doesn't that say more about the inequities in income than the inequities in tax?  If the income was more evenly spread then so would be the spread of contributions.

But where does that stop? A situation where everyone earned the same wouldn't be a utopia, I'd imagine. There'd be no motivation to take risks, create wealth etc.

Silvertabby

Yes it should be scrapped

booneruk said:

Linton said:

Doesn't that say more about the inequities in income than the inequities in tax?  If the income was more evenly spread then so would be the spread of contributions.

But where does that stop? A situation where everyone earned the same wouldn't be a utopia, I'd imagine. There'd be no motivation to take risks, create wealth etc.

Fiction, I know, but I once read a book in which all the wealth in the country was gathered into one big pot and then equally distributed throughout the population.  

Within 3 months the country was back to the haves and the have nots.   Human nature.

BlackKnightMonty

Yes it should be scrapped

Linton said:

BlackKnightMonty said:

artyboy said:

Silvertabby said:

sgx2000 said:

MattMattMattyeUK said:

sgx2000 said:

Uk already the worst pension in  Europe.....

The bottom two thirds of earners in the UK pay the lowest rate of income taxation in the EU, I wonder if there is a connection...

Yes there is....
The differential between the rich and poor in the uk is larger.....

Over 40% of UK adults don't pay any income tax.  Not one penny.

If we didn't have 'the rich' ........... 

but for mass affluent families on a few hundred thou' a year, it can feel like a pretty hostile place sometimes, given their relative contribution to society.

So true! Any conversation with average earners descends into “pay more tax!” despite the fact you already are paying double their entire wage in tax each year!

BlackKnightMonty said:

MarzipanCrumble said:

I would far rather pay higher taxation and have public services that work. 

I already pay over £50k a year in income tax and NI Alone. And services/benefits received nearly zero. I’m not sure if I want to pay anymore if I’m honest.

I mean, I’d like for that amount of tax to not have as many pot holes to avoid, or crumbling schools to dodge, or A&E waiting lists measured in hours rather than days.

 Doesn't that say more about the inequities in income than the inequities in tax?  If the income was more evenly spread then so would be the spread of contributions.

For sure incomes have stagnated. But there are a lot of micky mouse jobs being done. (I’m an engineer who designs/invents/builds things).

BlackKnightMonty

Yes it should be scrapped

booneruk said:

Linton said:

Doesn't that say more about the inequities in income than the inequities in tax?  If the income was more evenly spread then so would be the spread of contributions.

But where does that stop? A situation where everyone earned the same wouldn't be a utopia, I'd imagine. There'd be no motivation to take risks, create wealth etc.

Doctorate in Engineering here; kick started multiple businesses, worked in academia, government, industry; across multiple sectors, sat on executive boards.

In my book the rewards come from hard work, having some risk appetite, and spotting a good opportunity and jumping on board.

If you’ve done all that and are still on £30k then you can feel hard done by…