Can a Local Authority Retrospectively Claim for Care Costs After Sale of Property.

Spendless

tooldle said:

Nobody is liable for 3rd party top up fees. Family can choose to top up their relatives ‘allowance’ if the cost of their preferred facility is higher than funds available. I’m wondering if this happened as your Nan was not in a position to pay on entering the home and was maybe reliant on LA to ‘lend the funds’ until her house was sold? In those situations, does the LA lend up to their own allowance only? 

*IF* that's the case then surely no-one would be in a care home that exceeded LA amounts unless they had the funds available (eg cash in the bank) in the first place or moved once a property had sold/assets liquidised. I guess a lot of peoples wealth is tied up in their property.

 From memory I believe Nan had enough cash to fund roughly 10 months of care. Ok I've used the wrong term is saying 'liable' I still believe my parents were given incorrect information about 3rd party top up fees needing to be paid by them/family (in reality purely them, no-one else in a position to help) when Nan was actually a self funder and remained fully so for the next 7ish  years before becoming eligible for part -funding. 

tooldle

That is the benefit of having funds available I.e. being able to chose your own timeline and, this is why many good homes have wait lists. People are in the queue to take a place as soon as a room comes free. 

My question remains though, does the LA loan the basic rate only, for persons who don’t have immediate cash on hand to pay and want to go to a more expensive setting. I don’t know the answer as my mum was self funding from day 1 and hence no LA involvement. 

Gavin83

tooldle said:

That is the benefit of having funds available I.e. being able to chose your own timeline and, this is why many good homes have wait lists. People are in the queue to take a place as soon as a room comes free. 

My question remains though, does the LA loan the basic rate only, for persons who don’t have immediate cash on hand to pay and want to go to a more expensive setting. I don’t know the answer as my mum was self funding from day 1 and hence no LA involvement. 

If the resident will ultimately be self funding (so they own a property) then the LA should fund that placement with the aim of recovering the money once the property is sold. No third party top up is required.

As previously stated the only situation which might result in a refusal is if they’ll only be self funding for a short amount of time.

tooldle

Thanks @Gavin83. I’ve had a look at the LA guidance for the LA in which I live. The guidance is silent on the amount of funding it will loan. Interest charges on the loan, are not mentioned. 

Spendless

Gavin83 said:

tooldle said:

That is the benefit of having funds available I.e. being able to chose your own timeline and, this is why many good homes have wait lists. People are in the queue to take a place as soon as a room comes free. 

My question remains though, does the LA loan the basic rate only, for persons who don’t have immediate cash on hand to pay and want to go to a more expensive setting. I don’t know the answer as my mum was self funding from day 1 and hence no LA involvement. 

If the resident will ultimately be self funding (so they own a property) then the LA should fund that placement with the aim of recovering the money once the property is sold. No third party top up is required.

As previously stated the only situation which might result in a refusal is if they’ll only be self funding for a short amount of time.

Thank you, so my parents were told incorrectly, which is what I suspected. Since Nan was able to (and did)  fully fund herself inc her  property sold being sold ) for around 7 years and was almost 91 at the point she went to live in a care home I'd say the 'only able  to be self funding for a short amount of time' didn't apply to her. 

tooldle

Spendless 

Thank you, so my parents were told incorrectly, which is what I suspected. Since Nan was able to (and did)  fully fund herself inc her  property sold being sold ) for around 7 years and was almost 91 at the point she went to live in a care home I'd say the 'only able  to be self funding for a short amount of time' didn't apply to her. 

Possibly not incorrect. AgeUk have guidance saying an LA must allow core care costs to be deferred. It can consider request for top up costs to be included and retains discretion on whether to agree. 

Spendless

tooldle said:

Spendless 

Thank you, so my parents were told incorrectly, which is what I suspected. Since Nan was able to (and did)  fully fund herself inc her  property sold being sold ) for around 7 years and was almost 91 at the point she went to live in a care home I'd say the 'only able  to be self funding for a short amount of time' didn't apply to her. 

Possibly not incorrect. AgeUk have guidance saying an LA must allow core care costs to be deferred. It can consider request for top up costs to be included and retains discretion on whether to agree. 

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean,  they weren't asking the LA for a loan of top up fees or to pay them. Nan was self funding, she had upto 10 months worth of money in her bank account to pay the fees followed by her property to be sold, which then kept her afloat until she had been in the care home around 7 years and was by then in her late 90s. She  then had part funding for maybe a year max until she died. .  

tooldle

Spendless

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean,  they weren't asking the LA for a loan of top up fees or to pay them. Nan was self funding, she had upto 10 months worth of money in her bank account to pay the fees followed by her property to be sold, which then kept her afloat until she had been in the care home around 7 years and was by then in her late 90s. She  then had part funding for maybe a year max until she died. .  

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you but, you did say your parents went to a panel of some sort, with Nan having a few K in the bank and a house to sell. Why was a panel needed if there was no application for deferred payment / loan.
was it perhaps a ‘best interests meeting” ?
This raised the question for me, does the LA have to loan more than the basic rate. The answer to which appears to be ‘no’. Helpful perhaps to those who are asset rich and cash poor, when planning for later life. 

RAS

We had a meeting at the hospital to discuss future planning, during which it was concluded by the assessment team that our parent could not go home. The atmosphere was very formal, there was clearly a process which had to be followed with one person effectively acting as chair and another taking notes.

The social services knew there was a property but the discussion about where the parent moved halted immediately when we revealed that there were some cash savings that would fund some months' care.  One literally threw her hand up in the air and exclaimed that no further discussion was needed, we could and would be responsible for identifying  the home and organising payment. The whole group visibly relaxed.

It did get tight because some money was in a one year bond that only matured the month it was needed to pay the fees, but by the time that ran out, the property was sold.

Interestingly, when we explained the financial and medical situation, the care home undertook to charge LA fees only if our parent was still resident when the money ran out, but explained that in practice the chances of them surviving that long were very slight.

tooldle

Similar to my recent experience @RAS. My mum had been in residential care for many years with dementia. Things took a significant turn and she was admitted to hospital. When ready for discharge, the nursing assessment determined she could not return to residential care and would need nursing care. A meeting was convened with myself, discharge nurse, ward nurse and the social worker to agree the way forwards care wise. No assessment of finances took place,  sort out your own contract with the chosen provider. The discharge team did helpfully provide contact details for nursing homes with spaces and advised me to check if the available bed was self funding. I don’t think it mattered in our circumstances as mum was bed bound and dying. I’d likely have paid the self funded rate for a LA rate room, to get her out of the hospital and into a peaceful setting. A larger room with a nice view only matters when in a position to enjoy it.