Charge Notice Hirer Notification

luzippu

Hi,

Received CN HN.
The Driver did stop for less than 1 minute. 
In a rush and only noticed signs once stopped.
Airport road/carparks were empty. Only 1 flight p/day.
Not sure if relevant, but Driver first name is mispelled on document.

Does The Driver pay the £60 (due tomorrow)? 
Does The Driver provide full name and address as requested?

Front and back images of notice letter:
https://postimg.cc/dLJ2C4GL
https://postimg.cc/VrDCWcqv

I read many posts, but not mahy for HN and some very old.
Also tried to post on pepipoo but could not start new topic.

Thanks for advice

Coupon-mad

Which PPC?  Maybe VCS?

Which Airport?

KeithP

PPC = VCS
Southend Airport

Links made live...
https://postimg.cc/dLJ2C4GL
https://postimg.cc/VrDCWcqv


Surely it is the vehicle hirer's name that is misspelt?
VCS have absolutely no idea who was driving.

It is the keeper that has received that notice.
If anyone is to respond, it would be the keeper, but the keeper should not respond giving the driver's details.
That would be far from sensible on airport land.
Also considering that VCS have almost certainly failed to comply with paras 13 and 14 of Sch4 of POFA, there is no way that the keeper, i.e. you, can be held liable.

The keeper should respond using one of Edna Basher's replies found towards the end of the opening post of the NEWBIES thread.

luzippu

Hi KeithP, thanks for the corrections and live links. 

To confirm and sorry for the confusion:
This Hirer Notification was received by me The Hirer (not the Keeper).
The Keeper has received a separate Notice To Keeper, and then named the Hirer. 

So, "there is no way that the keeper, i.e. you, can be held liable." does that men that if I am not the Keeper, but the Hirer, i am then liable?

troublemaker22

I think this is getting a bit muddled. 

The keeper is the lease company. The hirer is the person to whom the vehicle is leased. The driver is irrelevant provided nobody identifies the driver to VCS. 

The keeper (the lease company) is off the hook because they have passed the buck to the hirer. The hirer can now get off the hook because the notice to hirer has not effectively transferred the driver’s liability (if any) to the hirer under Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘POFA’) for at least two reasons. To fully understand these reasons you need to read POFA paragraphs 3, 13 and 14 but in summary:

1. POFA doesn’t apply at airports because parking at airports is subject to statutory control under airport byelaws and is therefore excluded from the definition of ‘relevant land’ in POFA paragraph 3; and 

2. Even if POFA does apply at this airport (which it doesn’t) VCS’s notice does not comply with the requirements of POFA paragraph 14 both because it doesn’t contain the required wording and (almost certainly - but you can confirm this) because it came in an envelope that did not also contain the other documents specified in POFA paragraph 13. 

If I were you I would appeal on the above bases rather than the more generic Edna Basher template. You can find template wording for point 1 in the airport thread https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6500170/group-thread-for-heathrow-and-gatwick-drop-off-pcns

Obviously modify the wording to refer to the correct airport and PPC. 

As regards point 2 I would just write:

Even if (which is not the case) POFA does apply on airport land, your notice does not satisfy the requirements for a notice to hirer in POFA paragraph 14.

Don’t be disappointed if VCS rejects the appeal (which they usually do) as you will win in the end if you stick to the plan.   You need to familiarise yourself with POFA rather than just parrot the templates without understanding them if you’re going to defend yourself properly after VCS rejects the appeal. You can find it here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4.

luzippu

Thanks, I will read through the airport thread and write up an appeal. And to confirm, the envelope arrived with no other documentation, just the the CN-HN sheet.

luzippu

Thanks so much, the POFA document is great reading! Lol

So I now understand:

• Paragraph 3 in regards to ‘relevant land’ 
• Paragraph 13 regarding hired vehicles, the role of the hire firm as Keeper (in my case was a courtesy car), and my liability as the Hirer
• Paragraph 14 regarding VCS failing to provide the relevant documents to the Hirer

 

Question: The CN-HN notice received says I have 14 days to submit an appeal (which is actually today). 
In the POFA I think it says I should have either 21 or 28 days (too technical I couldn’t work it out…) 
So, I assume I should stick to the 14 days (today) to submit the appeal? (knowing that they will reject it anyway..)

 

And finally below my attempt to re-word the template for my case. I’m not really sure if all applies to my case given I am not the keeper, but the hirer. Great if you could help:

"I appeal as hirer. I am not obliged to identify the driver and I decline to do so.

1. You are unable to transfer liability to the hirer pursuant to Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ('POFA') because airport drop-off zones are not ‘relevant land’ as defined in POFA.

2. Even if (which is not the case) POFA does apply on airport land, your notice does not satisfy the requirements for a notice to hirer in POFA paragraph 14.

Furthermore, as hirer I am entitled to all the defenses available to the driver including (without limitation) the following:

3. The parking charge is not notified until after the contract is entered into and under the principles set out by the Court of Appeal in Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking, does not form part of the contract between the driver and VCS;

4. The signage is not compliant with the BPA Code of Practice; ***??? How do I know if this is applicable ???***

5. The car was present in the drop-off zone for not more than 5 minutes and the driver is entitled to the 5-minute consideration period mandated by the BPA Code of Practice ***??? How do I know if this is applicable ???***

Any one of the above reasons is alone sufficient to require cancellation of the CN

Therefore I require you to cancel the CN and expunge my personal data from your records."

Castle

VCS are not in the BPA.

luzippu

I did some research and it looks like they are members of IPC. 
Is it a matter of swapping BPA for IPC? or do point 4 and 5 above don't apply to VCS and i can remove?
Thanks

Coupon-mad

You can just swap out BPA for IPC.

luzippu

Hi @Coupon-mad & team

 I re-read the NEWBIES post and other hire cars posts and I could do with some help please:

1. Given the Hire company passed the details to VCS, am I the ‘Keeper’ going forward? (still struggling with this part)
2. Should I submit the appeal as instructed by VCS via myparkingcharge.co.uk which btw redirects to excel.zatappeal.com? (The redirect just put me off)
3. Should I submit the appeal close to 21 days from the CN issue date? (I know I should ignore the 14-day “bribe”, but i am still confused on the right timing)
4. When submitting the appeal, if asked, should I provide my name and mailing address (as the keeper) or just an email?
5. Should I swap keeper for hirer in my text?

"I appeal as keeper. I am not obliged to identify the driver and I decline to do so.

1. You are unable to transfer liability to the keeper pursuant to Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ('POFA') because airport drop-off zones are not ‘relevant land’ as defined in POFA.

2. Even if (which is not the case) the land in question is relevant land your notice does not conform to the requirements set out in POFA paragraphs 9(2)(f) and 14. 

Furthermore, as keeper I am entitled to all the defenses available to the driver including (without limitation) the following:

3. The parking charge is not notified until after the contract is entered into and under the principles set out by the Court of Appeal in Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking, does not form part of the contract between the driver and VCS;

4. The signage is not compliant with the IPC Code of Practice;

5. The car was present for not more than 5 minutes and the driver is entitled to the 5-minute consideration period mandated by the IPC Code of Practice. 

Any one of the above reasons is alone sufficient to require cancellation of the CN

Therefore I require you to cancel the CN and expunge my personal data from your records."

Thank you all again.