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Letter Before Action - Civil Enforcement Ltd - Parking fee paid but still chasing PCN and now court
plainjane70
Posts: 11 Forumite
Hello everyone,
I have received a Letter Before Claim from Civil Enforcement Limited and although I would obviously prefer them to not take me to court I am inclined to go to court is because I feel my case is completely unfair.
I was not driving, nor even present. A friend had borrowed my car and parked in the car park. Secondly, she actually paid to park, paying £2.50 to park for 24 hours (staying just over 2.5 hours).
The PCN arrived because my friend took more than 10 minutes to pay, which is the (ridiculously low) time limit given by Civil Enforcement Limited.
Does anyone have any experience of defending PCNs given under these circumstances?
In my friend's words, it took her a couple of minutes to even get to a parking space (it is a small car park, and the route around the spaces was blocked by another car attempting to reverse out of a space. Another minute to park and collect her things, then a few minutes to find a sign, read it fully, and decide what to do. She called the phone number first, completely automated of course, and when she realised she would have to speak lots of information - assuming it would be the slower option - she decided it would be better and quicker to pay by the app.
Unfortunately the mobile signal was not great and it took a few minutes to download the app. She tried to create an account but gets error message that she already has an account (from another singular parking instance years ago). She then has to find old account details, reset password, and log in again. A few minutes gone. She was required to input all her details including bank details and address, then the details of the car. That took a few minutes at least, and she was hurrying because she was aware of the time limit and worried about getting a ticket.
Eventually she paid via the app but perhaps 10 minutes too late. There was also an error in the vehicle registration she entered - a V instead of a Y - she had to contact the app directly to get it changed because it wouldn't do it in the app.
When the PCN arrived I thought it would be no problem appealing, since she did actually pay, albeit slightly late but the evidence shows she began attempting to pay as soon as she was able and didn't stop until she had succeeded. The appeal failed and so did the POPLA appeal. Unfortunately I feel we made a faux pas because I gave my friend's name as the driver during the appeal stage, since I was ill at the time and she offered to take the admin off my plate.
Lots off letters from debt collectors et al since then (September 2022) and now the Letter Before Claim. They haven't even deducted the £2.50 they received for the parking from the total fine!
I have literally zero experience of anything to do with PCNs before this, and definitely no experience of any court that I could be taken to for this. Would it be a County Court? Could a judge side with the parking operator over this, even though there was an honest attempt at quick payment and eventual payment?
Part of me thinks that no normal person would side with the parking operator, but I'm obviously biased and I'm worried that I could lose. I'm thinking it might just be better to pay them this week and have it all done with. But then I think surely they couldn't win that! I'm going round in circles and any advice about any of this would really help me out a lot.
Thank you in advance,
PlainJane
I have received a Letter Before Claim from Civil Enforcement Limited and although I would obviously prefer them to not take me to court I am inclined to go to court is because I feel my case is completely unfair.
I was not driving, nor even present. A friend had borrowed my car and parked in the car park. Secondly, she actually paid to park, paying £2.50 to park for 24 hours (staying just over 2.5 hours).
The PCN arrived because my friend took more than 10 minutes to pay, which is the (ridiculously low) time limit given by Civil Enforcement Limited.
Does anyone have any experience of defending PCNs given under these circumstances?
In my friend's words, it took her a couple of minutes to even get to a parking space (it is a small car park, and the route around the spaces was blocked by another car attempting to reverse out of a space. Another minute to park and collect her things, then a few minutes to find a sign, read it fully, and decide what to do. She called the phone number first, completely automated of course, and when she realised she would have to speak lots of information - assuming it would be the slower option - she decided it would be better and quicker to pay by the app.
Unfortunately the mobile signal was not great and it took a few minutes to download the app. She tried to create an account but gets error message that she already has an account (from another singular parking instance years ago). She then has to find old account details, reset password, and log in again. A few minutes gone. She was required to input all her details including bank details and address, then the details of the car. That took a few minutes at least, and she was hurrying because she was aware of the time limit and worried about getting a ticket.
Eventually she paid via the app but perhaps 10 minutes too late. There was also an error in the vehicle registration she entered - a V instead of a Y - she had to contact the app directly to get it changed because it wouldn't do it in the app.
When the PCN arrived I thought it would be no problem appealing, since she did actually pay, albeit slightly late but the evidence shows she began attempting to pay as soon as she was able and didn't stop until she had succeeded. The appeal failed and so did the POPLA appeal. Unfortunately I feel we made a faux pas because I gave my friend's name as the driver during the appeal stage, since I was ill at the time and she offered to take the admin off my plate.
Lots off letters from debt collectors et al since then (September 2022) and now the Letter Before Claim. They haven't even deducted the £2.50 they received for the parking from the total fine!
I have literally zero experience of anything to do with PCNs before this, and definitely no experience of any court that I could be taken to for this. Would it be a County Court? Could a judge side with the parking operator over this, even though there was an honest attempt at quick payment and eventual payment?
Part of me thinks that no normal person would side with the parking operator, but I'm obviously biased and I'm worried that I could lose. I'm thinking it might just be better to pay them this week and have it all done with. But then I think surely they couldn't win that! I'm going round in circles and any advice about any of this would really help me out a lot.
Thank you in advance,
PlainJane
2
Comments
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Please don't pay them. This is how the whole shoddy system works. There are some incredible people on the forum who can advise and help you through the process.2
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You will win in court. Far easier than you think!
Is the LBC addressed to you?
Respond by email (search the forum...!) and remind them that you were not driving and payment for a full day's parking was made by your friend in full. Tell them to cancel the PCN.
PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD1 -
I'm really trying not to pay them. Hoping some knowledgable souls can give me some reassurances!Momanns said:Please don't pay them. This is how the whole shoddy system works. There are some incredible people on the forum who can advise and help you through the process.0 -
Does it look like I have a winnable case then, Coupon-mad?Coupon-mad said:You will win in court. Far easier than you think!
Is the LBC addressed to you?
Respond by email (search the forum...!) and remind them that you were not driving and payment for a full day's parking was made by your friend in full. Tell them to cancel the PCN.
Yes the LBC is addressed to me.
I searched as you said and I now have their email addresses, and will email the points you mention. I was thinking I could also attach a copy of the payment for the parking too.
Is that the only thing I can/should do at this stage, before they move it onwards? I have read about sending a SAR, but is that only when they have started the claims process?
Thank you,
Pj0 -
Sending a SAR is no longer our advice. Let the claim come; yes send your evidence and reply as shown in the NEWBIES thread but don't expect them to stop.
Yes you have a strong case. I don't say "you will win in court" as confidently (without caveat) to everyone!PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD1 -
Thank you so much for your advice and also for your confidence! I'm going to send the email tonight or perhaps tomorrow - the 30 days runs out on Sunday so I want to send it close to that - if nothing else but to annoy them a bit!Coupon-mad said:Sending a SAR is no longer our advice. Let the claim come; yes send your evidence and reply as shown in the NEWBIES thread but don't expect them to stop.
Yes you have a strong case. I don't say "you will win in court" as confidently (without caveat) to everyone!
Ok great - won't send a SAR. A bit scared but gaining in confidence
Best,
Pj2 -
I would be surprised if this got to court. They will huff and puff and try to frighten you, but particularly with a well constructed defence, I would expect them to discontinue.
Even if I am wrong in that, this really is winnable. Keep strongThe pen is mightier than the sword ..... and I have many pens.2 -
Thank you for your response, Trainerman. I have now emailed them - I will wait an see, but I'm sure that you're right.Trainerman said:I would be surprised if this got to court. They will huff and puff and try to frighten you, but particularly with a well constructed defence, I would expect them to discontinue.
Even if I am wrong in that, this really is winnable. Keep strong0 -
What email address did use for Civil Enforcement Ltd0
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@Margaret1960, you were given a link on your own thread a couple of days ago which lists at least three email addresses you might use.Margaret1960 said:What email address did use for Civil Enforcement Ltd3
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