Retail park PCN, disability but no blue badge

21rhubarb

Hi all, I have a postal PCN dated 17/01 (and recently got the follow-up one) so final 'payment' deadline is this week. Should have got to it earlier but life happens. Due to disability I currently have issues processing information, so I would appreciate a bit of guidance with how to proceed. I'm exactly the kind of person that threatening letters work on, and going to court would be more than I could cope with mentally, so I'm feeling pressure to pay just for peace of mind 

Main points I need clarification on:
1. It was for overstaying a 3hr max in a retail park by 1.5 hours, on a weekday. Their time limit's absurd for anyone as it has a dozen large shops including cafes. My disabilities don't affect my driving, so I don't have a blue badge, but while shopping I take longer walking & browsing, especially when trying clothes which I did on that day! However I was alone and this is shown in the photos they sent, so using this argument would name me as the driver. Is there a way to get around this?
2. I gather I should first complain to the landowner and then appeal, but I don't know/can't find the landowner of the retail park. Do I pick a shop I visited? I spent most of the time in a charity shop and have no idea how/who I'd contact in this case  
3. I tried to pick up a prescription at a pharmacy there and was told to return in an hour because they were on lunch break. I left instead of waiting, but it seems to me this would be a useful argument for how the 3hr limit (& no return in 2!) is unreasonable. Is it worth mentioning even if it didn't affect me that day?

Also, if anyone could explain the right templates for each stage I'd appreciate it - I've been going through the sticky/pinned posts in circles and ended up confused about what's for complaints, what's for appeals, and if I have to copy the whole lot or just certain bits. I might have misunderstood something somewhere, but some seem too lengthy to be the initial complaint emails

Thanks very much- apologies for the length of this. Brevity isn't my strong suit. 

Fruitcake

What is the name of the parking company please?

Where did the alleged event occur? It might have cropped up here before.

The landowner's details or that of their agents may be found on the bottom of the main retail park entrance sign.

As well as complaining to the landowner you should also complain to your MP.

Check whether the NTK is or is not PoFA compliant by comparing the dates and wording with the Act. If you are unsure, post both sides of the NTK (not the reminder). Redact personal data including name, address, VRM, and PCN number, but leave the dates showing.

The Blue Badge scheme does not apply on private land, but the Equality Act does, although the parking industry would have you believe the opposite of both those statements are true.

As for obtaining a BB, it has nothing to do with your ability to drive, so if you believe your health conditions fit the criteria for obtaining one, you should apply for one.

Abbreviations and acronyms common to the parking forum can be found in the fifth post of the sticky Announcement for NEWBIES.

Regular poster @Umkomaas has provided this useful check list for finding a landowner.

SOME IDEAS ON DETERMINING WHO OWNS THE LAND: 

1. Google searches

2. If a retail park, check on any signage which lists the on-site outlets

3. Ask retailers on the site if there is a managing agent

4. Ask retailers on the site to whom do they pay rent

5. Contact the local authority and ask who pays the non-domestic/business rate for the car park (some councils have a spreadsheet on their website)

6. Contact the local Valuation Office and ask if they know. They often have a website which might provide the information 

7. Contact The Land Registry and for around £3 they should be able to provide definitive detail

8. If you haven't already done so, give us the name of the car park/site/location, we may have seen other cases there.

SteveJW

My disabilities don't affect my driving, so I don't have a blue badge, but while shopping I take longer walking & browsing, especially when trying clothes which I did on that day!

Nothing to do with the permit

Blue badge is not to do with driving but is available for people who have mobility issues, may have hidden medical conditions etc

I have severe arthritis, waiting for hip replacements, so use crutches to assist me.Hence I take longer walking, find it difficult to walk long distances

I have a blue badge

I would suggest you fulfil the criteria for a Blue badge

Good luck with the PCN

Debszzzz2

21rhubarb said:

 However I was alone and this is shown in the photos they sent, so using this argument would name me as the driver. Is there a way to get around this?

They have no idea who it is in the photo. They have sent the PCN to you as the registered keeper. They are not allowed to assume or infer that you were also the driver. The keeper and the driver are two separate entities in law which is why everyone is advised, at least initially, to not identify who was driving.

Think about it... they could have a lovely high res photo of you behind the wheel. However, they still have no idea who that person is. There is no magic database they can use to compare a photo of a person to match up with who that person is.

How would you identify this person if you are just a private company or an individual? You can't.

21rhubarb

Fruitcake said:
What is the name of the parking company please?

Where did the alleged event occur? It might have cropped up here before.

The landowner's details or that of their agents may be found on the bottom of the main retail park entrance sign.

As well as complaining to the landowner you should also complain to your MP.

Thanks for the pointers. It is Civil Enforcement, and at Newbury Retail Park. I could only find one previous case in the same place on here but it's a years old post and didn't mention landowner.

Both letters are PoFA compliant so no dice there unfortunately, I'll carry on searching for landowner with that useful list. From some more searching it could be BMO Real Estate or Columbia Threadneedle but will need to verify the entrance sign. 


Will spend more time on the complaints/cancellations thread and draft an email, managed to find some useful threads but it's already taken a mental toll so will need to pace myself!

I'm going to miss the 28 day deadline from initial NTK, so does that mean I can't appeal and must rely on complaining? I expect I'll see debt collector letters soon, is that essentially straight to the legal route if complaints aren't successful? 


FTR, only mentioned not having a BB to clarify I was in a standard space despite mentioning disabilities - didn't mean to cause confusion! I'm currently in the lengthy PlP battle (to be followed by ESA) & exhausted of beaurocracy and fighting their incompetence as is, but will keep the badge in mind, thanks all for suggesting.

Debszzzz2 said:

They have no idea who it is in the photo. They have sent the PCN to you as the registered keeper. They are not allowed to assume or infer that you were also the driver. The keeper and the driver are two separate entities in law which is why everyone is advised, at least initially, to not identify who was driving.

Yes that's my understanding, but I don't know if they'd want evidence down the line which would "out" me. Talking about "the driver's disabilities" feels perhaps too misleading, as if implying the driver and owner(writer) are definitely different people, but I hope I'm overthinking it. I'm so aware of how they'll try to trip us up on technicalities!
Since going through complaints advice again, I realise I don't need to include half as much detail as I thought at this stage, so really not as big a concern as i thought. Fingers crossed it goes no further.

I suppose it speaks for itself that they don't seem to have access to DVLA databases, to check licence pictures...!


Thanks again, all; this is really appreciated

Fruitcake

CEL NTKs are usually PoFA compliant, but there is no need to "out" the driver just yet. You can always post both sides of the NTK here leaving dates showing but redacting personal data for the regulars to check.
However, if it got to court, then I would suggest it would make the defence easier by identifying the driver when talking about breaches of the Equality Act 2010.

Whether or not you can appeal to CEL (you could do it by post, sent first class from a Post Office counter and obtain a free proof of posting certificate), you should inform them of the driver's/occupant's disability and refer them to the relevant parts of the EA 2010.
Point out that failing to anticipate the needs of a disabled person with Protected Characteristics and making reasonable adjustments for them as defined by the Act is indirect discrimination, a breach of said act, and a criminal offence.
Continuing to pursue a motorist once they have been made aware of the above is direct discrimination, a further breach of the Act, and a further criminal offence.

Reasonable adjustments could mean wider parking bays, or bays nearer the premises being visited, or allowing more time for someone with mobility impairment. The PPC should have anticipated that the driver in your case might need more time. The fact that they were parked in an accessible bay is an indication that they had a disability, and therefore should have anticipated their needs, not assumed the opposite.

Coupon-mad

Admit to driving and supply information about your disability and PIP application and tell them this is disability discrimination.

Send the same to the landowners.