Shared water pipes and private roads.

Marcus_Cooper

Any experts, or people with experience about these out there?

This one will be long I'm afraid...

We've recently moved into a bungalow on a private lane - we're the 3rd detatched house on the lane, and there are 2 more after us, plus a semi-detached at the top.

As far as I know, all the properties were on a single shared water pipe several decades ago - it comes up the lane from the main road and is probably around 200m in total length. A while ago, a new close was built on the other side of the hedge opposite and most of the lane residents opted to pay for new connections and new pipes to the main that was put in for that close. At the moment (again, afaik) it's now just us and the house two up from us that are still on the old pipe.The owner of that property says he replaced the pipe from our house to his several years ago - it was an old galvanised pipe that had corroded down to less than half it's diameter - he couldn't get the tip of his little finger up it.

We have no central heating, and attempts at having it installed have run aground due to a lack of water flow up the old pipe - just 6 litres per minute, at 3 bar pressure. Any options to put in a new pipe would need a new tap and either 75m or 45m of pipe being laid through one or two neighbour's properties - I can't use the existing tap as that would cut off the last house on the old pipe, and I've been told that the guy on the other side of the hedge extorted 4 figure sums of the other neighbours to put a pipe under 1m of his garden to the connections in the pavement.

Severn Trent have washed their hands of the whole situation as it's a private road. Every direction looks like a nightmare with a £5k+ price tag, so I was going to copy my two-up neighbour and stick in a buffer tank, but the likelihood that this old pipe will fail at some point in the not too distant future is giving me pause... so, having set the scene, it's on to the query...

I assume that the old pipe "belonged" to everyone up the lane when it was in use, with each property responsible for the section going though their garden/driveway (the ownership of the lane is also a mystery - whether we "own" the part next to our properties, or are just responsible for it's upkeep and have right of access, I don't know). Now that most of the residents are on their own pipes, if the old pipe fails under their properties and causes damage, can they come back at us and say "it's not our water pipe any more, it's your water pipe, so you're responsible for the damage to our property"? Or is the pipe still their responsibility as it's on their property? Both options seem unreasonable really - it doesn't seem fair that they can't remove the risk of an old water pipe that they don't use, and it doesn't seem fair that we can't replace it as it's not under our property.

Also, should it make any difference to Severn Trent's "not our problem", that we have a daughter with special needs and DLA level 2 provision?

gm0

Need to find the documents. Land Registry title downloads for the run of houses.  Neighbours. Conveyance file.  Not a general rule.  Obligations will be based on what these say. 

As will ability to seek contributions on a legal basis (Which may still be refused by those no longer using it and may not in practice be worth the legal costs to pursue as lawyers will find plenty to quibble about I am sure.

It's EOL.  Decommissioning it.  New supply for you and other neighbour still on it.  Split cost between you.  It is what it is.

You could create a dispute around this (to all the involved neighbours detriment) and thus there is a shakedown opportunity for a level of contribution to the legal and practical tidy up.  Which may be a new supply pipe.  Not on the existing route but along the private road.  Their choice is agree that.  Or have the borer sent up the existing route (which permission exists for already -  most likely).

You might even have a case to get full shares - if the old documents are clear about it.  Obligation to repair, successors in title etc.  And oh the bad feeling it would create. 

You could position as being super helpful and solving the problem including an update to the shared private road deeds to remove the retired stuff.  But helpful or not. 

Those not using it will feel robbed.  Even if they have not been.

Ectophile

I can understand you wanting to get rid of the old pipe, but I don't see what that's got to do with a central heating system.

Once filled with water, a central heating system uses almost nothing.  To the extent that if the water main bursts and loses all pressure, you should still be able to use the heating for a few weeks at least.

Hot water is another matter.  A combi boiler is no good without a decent water flow.  But the old-fashioned system with a tank in the loft works fine with only a modest flow of water to keep it refilled.

jonnydeppiwish!

Marcus_Cooper said:

Also, should it make any difference to Severn Trent's "not our problem", that we have a daughter with special needs and DLA level 2 provision?

No, no difference whatsoever - it’s just like the end of a driveway if a normal house. Your responsibility from the highway.

if it were me, and the neighbours weren’t interested in paying for it, I’d pay to have a separate new feed just to your house.

Marcus_Cooper

jonnydeppiwish! said:

Marcus_Cooper said:

Also, should it make any difference to Severn Trent's "not our problem", that we have a daughter with special needs and DLA level 2 provision?

No, no difference whatsoever - it’s just like the end of a driveway if a normal house. Your responsibility from the highway.

if it were me, and the neighbours weren’t interested in paying for it, I’d pay to have a separate new feed just to your house.

I want a new pipe, and I'm prepared to pay for it - the difficulty is that there is no way for me to get one without going through 1 or more other people's properties... and I don't want to be extorted for doing that, on top of the £5k it's going to cost for the new pipe and connection.

Marcus_Cooper

Ectophile said:

I can understand you wanting to get rid of the old pipe, but I don't see what that's got to do with a central heating system.

Once filled with water, a central heating system uses almost nothing.  To the extent that if the water main bursts and loses all pressure, you should still be able to use the heating for a few weeks at least.

Hot water is another matter.  A combi boiler is no good without a decent water flow.  But the old-fashioned system with a tank in the loft works fine with only a modest flow of water to keep it refilled.

Central heating + hot water - I referred to them as the same thing. Whether it's a gas combi (which we don't have a connection for), or a Heat Pump, I have been told that there are minimum water flow requirements. I'd be quite happy to go for the loft tank route if it wasn't for the impending complete failure of the old pipe, and possible damage to my, or my neighbour's properties (plus the consequent costs and possible legal conflict). If the current flow is already down to only 6L/m then how much longer can it go before it either breaks or becomes not fit for purpose?

Marcus_Cooper

gm0 said:

Need to find the documents. Land Registry title downloads for the run of houses.  Neighbours. Conveyance file.  Not a general rule.  Obligations will be based on what these say. 

As will ability to seek contributions on a legal basis (Which may still be refused by those no longer using it and may not in practice be worth the legal costs to pursue as lawyers will find plenty to quibble about I am sure.

It's EOL.  Decommissioning it.  New supply for you and other neighbour still on it.  Split cost between you.  It is what it is.

You could create a dispute around this (to all the involved neighbours detriment) and thus there is a shakedown opportunity for a level of contribution to the legal and practical tidy up.  Which may be a new supply pipe.  Not on the existing route but along the private road.  Their choice is agree that.  Or have the borer sent up the existing route (which permission exists for already -  most likely).

You might even have a case to get full shares - if the old documents are clear about it.  Obligation to repair, successors in title etc.  And oh the bad feeling it would create. 

You could position as being super helpful and solving the problem including an update to the shared private road deeds to remove the retired stuff.  But helpful or not. 

Those not using it will feel robbed.  Even if they have not been.

Yes, having just moved in we are very keen to not create any sort of conflict right off the bat. Unfortunately the guy we're sharing the pipe with has already told me that he doesn't have the money for a new pipe, shared or otherwise... and regardless, if I'm going to shell out multiple thousands for a new pipe, then I feel it wouldn't be wise to stick myself back into another shared supply drama.

I'm not looking for contributions from my neighbours, I'm just not looking to have to pay them to put in my new pipe up their section of the lane, and I'm very much looking to avoid a situation where one of my neighbours comes up to me and says: "YOUR water pipe has been leaking under my garage for the last 3 months and my garage has collapsed, so YOU must pay to fix the ground and rebuild my garage."

Anyway - looks like the only way to find ownership and responsibility answers will be hidden in some paperwork we'll have to apply for - there was nothing about any of this in the the pack that came from the estate agent or the seller's conveyancing report... that even said the road was adpoted, which it clearly isn't.

Green_hopeful

At the land registry you can access both your own and your neighbours’s title documents. There will be the current title documents and plans but there might also be other historic documents that you can apply for. Anyone can sign up and get copies for £3 each. These documents will tell you if you have a right to lay and maintain a water pipe along any neighbours’s land assuming your neighbours own the access road. There should be a right but there isn’t always. That would enable you to understand what you might have to pay your neighbours if anything. 

Ofwat has an explanation of who is responsible for water pipes. I am sorry I don’t quite understand your situation but the Ofwat guidance might help. https://www.ofwat.gov.uk/households/supply-and-standards/supply-pipes/

Marcus_Cooper

Green_hopeful said:

At the land registry you can access both your own and your neighbours’s title documents. There will be the current title documents and plans but there might also be other historic documents that you can apply for. Anyone can sign up and get copies for £3 each. These documents will tell you if you have a right to lay and maintain a water pipe along any neighbours’s land assuming your neighbours own the access road. There should be a right but there isn’t always. That would enable you to understand what you might have to pay your neighbours if anything. 

Ofwat has an explanation of who is responsible for water pipes. I am sorry I don’t quite understand your situation but the Ofwat guidance might help. https://www.ofwat.gov.uk/households/supply-and-standards/supply-pipes/

Thanks... where are you seeing a £3 option? Would I just need the Title Plan, or the Title Register as well?

Title Register - £19.95 shows ownership of property or land, a description and restrictive covenants. We recommend buying the Title Plan too, showing boundaries of the land.

Title Plan - £19.95 visual representation of the property or land in a registered title. We recommend buying the Title Register as well, which describes the plan.

Conveyancing Pack - £34.95 the pack contains all available; Lease Deeds, Transfer Deeds, Conveyancing Deeds and Charges available for the selected property or land. Please add in the comments below if you require a specific document.

Green_hopeful

Are you trying the government site. https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry You can put your post code in and request documents. You will need the register and possibly the plan for your own house to start with. There might be other useful documents. It depends what you find. You want some words like ‘together with the right to lay and maintain etc the water pipe along the land marked red’. I haven’t used that version of the government website but I expect it is similar. I might be tempted to copy and paste the words in here and see what people say. Obs remove any personal data. 

I suspect the more pricy options are those websites where they charge extra for stuff.