Car lease company paid private parking company's parking charge & sent me the invoice to pay them.

MobileSaver

BikingBud said:

MobileSaver said:

BikingBud said:

MobileSaver said:

nopcns said:

they have misinterpreted the section that states the hirer is liable for any "parking offences". Unless the parking operator (PPC) is a statutory authority, which we all know they aren't, then no "offence" can have been committed.

I disagree but I'm happy to be proved wrong - which applicable legislation states an offence can only be committed against a statutory authority?
For example, how do you square that circle with drinking on the job often being a sackable "offence" irrespective of whether the employer is a statutory authority or not?

Because the terms within your contract specifically state that "drinking at work is a sackable offence" therefore if you do it you get sacked.

It does not set out a definition for "offence" it does not need to, it explicitly says you meet the condition "drinking at work" we can sack you, simples.

I agree entirely! 

The OP's contract terms specifically state that the leasing company can pay and recharge for any parking offence, and using your example they don't define "offence", they don't need to, if they meet their condition of "any parking offence" then they can pay and recharge, simples...

Where is the offence for parking on private land?

You said that the employer's contract "does not set out a definition for offence it does not need to" so why is this suddenly different for a lease contract?

sjs2013

nopcns said:

Having had to trawl through this thread after a question about it over on the Parking forum, the simple answer to the OPs question about how to progress to a court where a truly independent arbiter, a judge, will decide whether the OP owes a debt to "ACME", is to make a claim against "ACME" on MCOL for a refund of the charges they have taken from your account.

Anyone who is fairly confident can claim as a litigant-in-person in Part 27 proceedings in the County Court (commonly but wrongly described as "the Small Claims Court").  Each party is responsible for their own legal costs whether they win or lose and the claim for up to £300 can be issued online for a fee of £35 at https://moneyclaimonline.gov.uk which also gives useful advice if you want to have a look at what is involved.  Your claim will automatically be listed as being for a total of £335 (or whatever amount being claimed up to £300), i.e. the successful party gets their Court fees back.

The OP has a good case to make a claim. All they have to do is send ACME a Letter Before Claim(LBC) informing them they have 14 days in which to refund the sum they have withdrawn from the account or you will issue a County Court Claim. You can tell them in the letter that they are in breach if the contract because they have misinterpreted the section that states the hirer is liable for any "parking offences". Unless the parking operator (PPC) is a statutory authority, which we all know they aren't, then no "offence" can have been committed. ACME has gone beyond its remit and breached the contract by paying a speculative invoice from an unregulated private parking company, which is not one of the conditions of the contract.

The LBC does not cost anything and is worth sending to see how they respond. If they are intellectually malnourished enough not to understand the issue and either do not respond or refuse to refund the money, then you can either have your bluff called or go ahead and make the claim for £35 and have some fun with them.

This is extremely helpful. I haven't made a payment to them yet but they already started chasing me. 

I can either make the payment then start the court process OR wait for them. My concern is if they can mess up my credit file or not. I think I still can file a correction notification to Equifax/Experian. But this can take a long time. 

May be it's safer to pay them & start the court process?

Trainerman

People seem hung up on the word "offence". I gave one definition earlier. There are many more - Slater and Gordon article on differences between criminal and civil law says

 In other words, criminal law seeks to punish for an offence. Civil law seeks to achieve a remedy (for example, compensation) for the injured party

• Civil law aims to deal with disputes between individuals or organisations
• Criminal law has the ultimate aim of maintaining the stability of the state and society

I still maintain that it is not a legal charge, so the lease company agreement does not include it

Fruitcake

sjs2013 said:

nopcns said:

Having had to trawl through this thread after a question about it over on the Parking forum, the simple answer to the OPs question about how to progress to a court where a truly independent arbiter, a judge, will decide whether the OP owes a debt to "ACME", is to make a claim against "ACME" on MCOL for a refund of the charges they have taken from your account.

Anyone who is fairly confident can claim as a litigant-in-person in Part 27 proceedings in the County Court (commonly but wrongly described as "the Small Claims Court").  Each party is responsible for their own legal costs whether they win or lose and the claim for up to £300 can be issued online for a fee of £35 at https://moneyclaimonline.gov.uk which also gives useful advice if you want to have a look at what is involved.  Your claim will automatically be listed as being for a total of £335 (or whatever amount being claimed up to £300), i.e. the successful party gets their Court fees back.

The OP has a good case to make a claim. All they have to do is send ACME a Letter Before Claim(LBC) informing them they have 14 days in which to refund the sum they have withdrawn from the account or you will issue a County Court Claim. You can tell them in the letter that they are in breach if the contract because they have misinterpreted the section that states the hirer is liable for any "parking offences". Unless the parking operator (PPC) is a statutory authority, which we all know they aren't, then no "offence" can have been committed. ACME has gone beyond its remit and breached the contract by paying a speculative invoice from an unregulated private parking company, which is not one of the conditions of the contract.

The LBC does not cost anything and is worth sending to see how they respond. If they are intellectually malnourished enough not to understand the issue and either do not respond or refuse to refund the money, then you can either have your bluff called or go ahead and make the claim for £35 and have some fun with them.

This is extremely helpful. I haven't made a payment to them yet but they already started chasing me. 

I can either make the payment then start the court process OR wait for them. My concern is if they can mess up my credit file or not. I think I still can file a correction notification to Equifax/Experian. But this can take a long time. 

May be it's safer to pay them & start the court process?

They can't mess up your credit file, or more importantly, your ability to obtain credit (mortgage, loan, HP, Mobile 'phone contract etcetera) unless you have been to court, and lost and failed to pay within the prescribed time. If they started the process now, you might get a hearing by late summer, but it won't happen straight away because they have to follow the court pre-action protocol for debt claims.

I wouldn't pay at all. I would fight it, or worst case, defend it in court.

Jenni_D

I think the premise is that if you have a credit agreement (which essentially is what an ongoing hire agreement is, which is what a company car lease agreement effectively is) then it may be possible for them to place a marker on your credit file for a missed payment. 🤷‍♀️

Coupon-mad

MobileSaver said:

BikingBud said:

MobileSaver said:

BikingBud said:

MobileSaver said:

nopcns said:

they have misinterpreted the section that states the hirer is liable for any "parking offences". Unless the parking operator (PPC) is a statutory authority, which we all know they aren't, then no "offence" can have been committed.

I disagree but I'm happy to be proved wrong - which applicable legislation states an offence can only be committed against a statutory authority?
For example, how do you square that circle with drinking on the job often being a sackable "offence" irrespective of whether the employer is a statutory authority or not?

Because the terms within your contract specifically state that "drinking at work is a sackable offence" therefore if you do it you get sacked.

It does not set out a definition for "offence" it does not need to, it explicitly says you meet the condition "drinking at work" we can sack you, simples.

I agree entirely! 

The OP's contract terms specifically state that the leasing company can pay and recharge for any parking offence, and using your example they don't define "offence", they don't need to, if they meet their condition of "any parking offence" then they can pay and recharge, simples...

Where is the offence for parking on private land?

You said that the employer's contract "does not set out a definition for offence it does not need to" so why is this suddenly different for a lease contract?

Answer:

one is a trader-consumer contract covered by the CRA 2015 and one isn't.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/2#:~:text=(3)“Consumer”%20means,or%20profession%20must%20prove%20it.

"(3)“Consumer” means an individual acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual's trade, business, craft or profession. "

sjs2013

Jenni_D said:

I think the premise is that if you have a credit agreement (which essentially is what an ongoing hire agreement is, which is what a company car lease agreement effectively is) then it may be possible for them to place a marker on your credit file for a missed payment. 🤷‍♀️

My ongoing current lease contract is not with them. So I don't think they can put a missed pay marker.

fisherjim

The irony in all this is if there was a real "offence" e.g speeding / going through a red light, the lease company cannot just take the easy route (in reality that's what they do) they would have to actually return the required details back to the police within a time frame. 

With PCN's it's easier for them to just pay them under the guise of stopping the charge from escalating, and throw in a nice admin charge into the bargain.

I had 19 vehicles running around London in my day and had to kick the lease company (a huge multinational) into touch over the very same thing, but they had a great customer service contact who understood, and we worked out a plan.

nopcns

sjs2013 said:

I haven't made a payment to them yet but they already started chasing me. 

I can either make the payment then start the court process OR wait for them. My concern is if they can mess up my credit file or not. I think I still can file a correction notification to Equifax/Experian. But this can take a long time. 

May be it's safer to pay them & start the court process?

Back to the main reason for the original post...

sjs2013 said:

My ongoing current lease contract is not with them. So I don't think they can put a missed pay marker.

Is this then a dispute over a contract that is no longer in place? I don't think that the lease company can put a "marker" for a missed payment as this is nothing to do with any regular payments. This is a dispute over the lease company breaching the terms of the contract and trying to hold you liable for that breach, which most of the knowledgeable posters from the parking forum, agree you are not. In any case, a marker can be disputed with the relevant credit agency.

If you are going to dispute the demand for payment and they have not automatically taken that payment from you, then you only have one choice.  Wait and see if they make a claim against you which you defend.

Defending a claim should be fairly easy as you can point out their breach of their own terms. If they wanted to be able to hold you liable for them paying a PCN from a private parking company, they should have included that in the terms as evidenced by their own ATA in Page 10 of the BVRLA guidance:

Paying and recharging

Rental and leasing companies that choose to pay a private parking charge notice and recharge it to their customer should ensure that their rental/leasing agreement allows them to do this.

A sample clause, which would allow you to pay and recharge, is: “You will be responsible for paying the following charges:

All charges and legal costs for any congestion charge, road traffic offence parking offence or parking notice, or any other offence involving the rental vehicle, including from the vehicle being clamped, seized or towed away.”

It is there in black and white in their own guidance. The contract you signed does not include the all important "or parking notice". It may be worth, at this stage, to point that out to whichever intellectually malnourished person sent you that reply to your original query about it. You may also want to add that you look forward to them issuing a county court claim which you will defend rigorously.

Jenni_D

sjs2013 said:

Jenni_D said:

I think the premise is that if you have a credit agreement (which essentially is what an ongoing hire agreement is, which is what a company car lease agreement effectively is) then it may be possible for them to place a marker on your credit file for a missed payment. 🤷‍♀️

My ongoing current lease contract is not with them. So I don't think they can put a missed pay marker.

Can you clarify exactly what sort of contractual arrangement exists here please? On what basis do the lease/hire company believe they can charge you? Was this a single hire event rather than an ongoing hire? (It's hard to determine this based on the info you've provided so far).

When I used to have a company car, it was a leased car (costs paid by my employer, and I paid BIK tax for the benefit of the car) but I had no direct contractual liability with the lease company - I was only bound by my employer's Car Policy. Therefore any T&Cs of the lease/hie company were irrelevant.

That's why it's important we understand the contractual arrangement in your situation.