Car lease company paid private parking company's parking charge & sent me the invoice to pay them.

Jenni_D

noitsnotme said:

Alderbank said:

Government websites are far from perfect but this one says:

...penalty charge notices (PCN) are fines for minor driving offences. They will not appear on your criminal record unless a court gives you a conviction because of one.

https://www.gov.uk/tell-employer-or-college-about-criminal-record/driving-convictions#:~:text=Fixed%20penalty%20notices%20(FPN)%20and,a%20conviction%20because%20of%20one.

Possibly others do so as well.
Is there any higher authority such as primary legislation to show that this is wrong in law?

A speculative invoice from a private parking company is not a penalty charge notice.  Penalty CNs and fines can not be issued by private companies.

100% correct (with my minor edit).

Re. BVRLA guidance - I accept that their updated guidance does indeed say what @MobileSaver states. However that's a tacked-on option which is a one-liner that has almost certainly been urged by the BPA and/or IPC as it's the quickest way for both the parking companies and the hire companies to make money; very few hirers will actually contest this. The bulk of the guidance still conforms with the original MoU, and which is the process that should be followed (and was intended when PoFA 2012 became law) - so there's nothing at all to stop hire companies following the legislative intent, other than greed.

@Okell - your observation re. unfair contract term is correct (in my view). However it is also true that a private parking charge notice relates to a breach of contract rather than an offence, and the terms (as shown in this thread) absolutely do not allow the hire company to pursue the action they have taken as no offence has been committed. (Offence has a strict meaning in legal terms ... a breach of contract is not an offence). As such it can be argued that the hire company have breached the terms of the hire contract.  

And as to whether a parking company will entertain an appeal for a PCN that has already been paid ... anyone who seriously believes that will happen (except in rare cases where well-known media outlets are involved) needs to give their head a wobble. Absolutely will not happen. As such no further appeal option will be available (POPLA/IAS) either.

MobileSaver

nopcns said:

they have misinterpreted the section that states the hirer is liable for any "parking offences". Unless the parking operator (PPC) is a statutory authority, which we all know they aren't, then no "offence" can have been committed.

I disagree but I'm happy to be proved wrong - which applicable legislation states an offence can only be committed against a statutory authority?
For example, how do you square that circle with drinking on the job often being a sackable "offence" irrespective of whether the employer is a statutory authority or not?

Jenni_D

Sorry but that argument is laughable - really clutching at straws. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

And I've addressed the "offence" angle in my previous reply.  

nopcns

MobileSaver said:

I disagree but I'm happy to be proved wrong - which applicable legislation states an offence can only be committed against a statutory authority?

For example, how do you square that circle with drinking on the job often being a sackable "offence" irrespective of whether the employer is a statutory authority or not?

What on earth has your argument got to do with the price of eggs in China?

We are talking about the difference between an authority issued penalty notice for an alleged "offence" and a parking charge notice issued by an unregulated private company. The hire contract talks about fines, penalties and offences. The driver did not receive or commit any of those things. 

A Parking Charge Notice cannot be issued for any offence. It can only be issued for an alleged breach of contract under civil law. Private company can't fine anyone. A private company cannot invoice anyone for an offence. A private company cannot issue an invoice for a penalty. It really is that simple.

The OP has only one recourse. They cannot appeal to the PPC because they will just laugh and ignore him. If they want any chance of getting their money back, assuming they didn't tell the bank to refund the money and let the lease company take the OP to court, then all they have to do is follow the advice to issue an LBC and then make a claim.

It's not rocket science and anyone can do it. So, there's no need to obfuscate the issue with examples you have provided.

MobileSaver

Jenni_D said:

Sorry but that argument is laughable - really clutching at straws. And I've addressed the "offence" angle in my previous reply.  

You've simply stated as fact that "Offence has a strict meaning in legal terms" but have provided no evidence of that.

I fully accept that a "criminal offence" has a strict meaning but that is not the phrase used so I await to be educated on your claim - which applicable legislation are you referencing?

MobileSaver

nopcns said:

MobileSaver said:

I disagree but I'm happy to be proved wrong - which applicable legislation states an offence can only be committed against a statutory authority?

For example, how do you square that circle with drinking on the job often being a sackable "offence" irrespective of whether the employer is a statutory authority or not?

We are talking about the difference between an authority issued penalty notice for an alleged "offence" and a parking charge notice issued by an unregulated private company. The hire contract talks about fines, penalties and offences. The driver did not receive or commit any of those things. 
So, there's no need to obfuscate the issue with examples you have provided.

With all due respect the only obfuscation is from you. 

The OP has a contract with the lessor that states "All charges and legal costs for any ... parking offences or any other offence involving the rental vehicle", there's no mention of PCNs, invoices, fines or penalties.

You have stated that "parking offences or any other offence" does not apply because the parking authority is not a statutory authority but have provided no evidence of this claim. I would genuinely like to be educated on this point so please can you or @Jenni_D point me in the direction of the applicable legislation?

Jenni_D

MobileSaver said:

Jenni_D said:

Sorry but that argument is laughable - really clutching at straws. And I've addressed the "offence" angle in my previous reply.  

You've simply stated as fact that "Offence has a strict meaning in legal terms" but have provided no evidence of that.

I fully accept that a "criminal offence" has a strict meaning but that is not the phrase used so I await to be educated on your claim - which applicable legislation are you referencing?

I'll provide supporting evidence as soon as you do for any of your own observations/statements. (You've not provided yet one shred of evidence to support your own views. Even I had to find the "evidence" for the point you made about BVRLA guidance). 🙄

Edit: but even the dictionary offers an explanation for the word.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/offence
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/offence

noitsnotme

Jenni_D said:

noitsnotme said:

Alderbank said:

Government websites are far from perfect but this one says:

...penalty charge notices (PCN) are fines for minor driving offences. They will not appear on your criminal record unless a court gives you a conviction because of one.

https://www.gov.uk/tell-employer-or-college-about-criminal-record/driving-convictions#:~:text=Fixed%20penalty%20notices%20(FPN)%20and,a%20conviction%20because%20of%20one.

Possibly others do so as well.
Is there any higher authority such as primary legislation to show that this is wrong in law?

A speculative invoice from a private parking company is not a penalty charge notice.  Penalty CNs and fines can not be issued by private companies.

100% correct (with my minor edit).

Thanks.  I've edited my post to reflect the same.

Okell

Alderbank said:

Government websites are far from perfect but this one says:

...penalty charge notices (PCN) are fines for minor driving offences. They will not appear on your criminal record unless a court gives you a conviction because of one.

https://www.gov.uk/tell-employer-or-college-about-criminal-record/driving-convictions#:~:text=Fixed%20penalty%20notices%20(FPN)%20and,a%20conviction%20because%20of%20one.

Possibly others do so as well.
Is there any higher authority such as primary legislation to show that this is wrong in law?

As I suggested in an earlier post, I think the argument is that PCNs are issued by local authorities and relate to parking offences which were formerly criminal offences, but were decriminalised some years ago.  They are still referred to as parking offences.

Private parking companies do not deal with parking offences.  They deal with contractual parking "infringements" on private land, claim a breach of contract and then issue a parking charge invoice as recompense for the breach.

Or that's how I understand the argument.

Personally I think it's a bit technical and the obvious challenge to the hire company is that the term is unfair under the CRA.

MobileSaver

Jenni_D said:

MobileSaver said:

Jenni_D said:

Sorry but that argument is laughable - really clutching at straws. And I've addressed the "offence" angle in my previous reply.  

You've simply stated as fact that "Offence has a strict meaning in legal terms" but have provided no evidence of that.

I fully accept that a "criminal offence" has a strict meaning but that is not the phrase used so I await to be educated on your claim - which applicable legislation are you referencing?

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/offence

From your own link:

offence noun a violation or breach of a law, custom, rule, etc

So your own link confirms that a breach of a parking rule is called an offence...