PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: Hello Forumites! In order to help keep the Forum a useful, safe and friendly place for our users, discussions around non-MoneySaving matters are not permitted per the Forum rules. While we understand that mentioning house prices may sometimes be relevant to a user's specific MoneySaving situation, we ask that you please avoid veering into broad, general debates about the market, the economy and politics, as these can unfortunately lead to abusive or hateful behaviour. Threads that are found to have derailed into wider discussions may be removed. Users who repeatedly disregard this may have their Forum account banned. Please also avoid posting personally identifiable information, including links to your own online property listing which may reveal your address. Thank you for your understanding.

Section 13 notice, but it's all a bit crazy

GDB2222
GDB2222 Posts: 25,984 Forumite
Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
edited 15 February 2024 at 2:55PM in House buying, renting & selling
I'm asking for advice for a friend.

Tenancy started November 2019. One year fixed term, and now on a contractual periodic tenancy.

Rent was £1240 per month, and it has remained unchanged since the start.

The LL has served a S13 notice (Form 4) proposing an increase to £1550 per month. This looks slightly high. Another flat in the block  (in better condition) has just been agreed at £1500 per month.

So, what should my friend do?  

There's a twist to this, though: The tenancy agreement includes a section on rent increases that specifies that the rent can increase by the RPI. This means that the S13 form is invalid. However, I have calculated the RPI increase, and that would take the rent to £1600, ie more than the LL is proposing.  



No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
«1

Comments

  • GDB2222
    GDB2222 Posts: 25,984 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    I'm not sure how relevant it is to the above, but I had a look through the documents, and a couple of points sprang out:

    1. The EICR was in date at the start of the tenancy, but it is now well past its expiry date.

    2. The How To Rent Guide issued at the start of the tenancy was the 2016 edition, which was several editions out of date. The correct edition was dated August 2019.
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
  • If tenancy covers rent increases then s13 can't be used.  Pretty sure if you look up section 13 of Thatcher's 1988 Housing Act it will say so.  Evidence that landlord is ignorant.

    Suggest you wait until tribunal involved then point this out to landlord (thus buying time).

    Expect an s21 but check with Shelter's website on what makes s21 invalid.

    Artful, landlord since 2000.
  • Grumpy_chap
    Grumpy_chap Posts: 17,825 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    Does the friend like and wish to stay in the property?
    Does the LL generally do the right thing in terms of responding to any issues that need to be addressed?
    Does the friend accept that some movement in the rent is appropriate?

    If the above three all get a "yes", then I would suggest that going to a rent tribunal to have the S13 determined as invalid might serve to get the LL's back up and sour relationships resulting in the friend leaving the property sooner rather than later.

    Once the invalid S13 is confirmed, the LL might revert to the rent increase clause in the contract which the OP has calculated would be a higher figure anyway.

    A more pragmatic option for the friend might be to seek to reach an agreed rent increase.
    • Currently £1,240 (since 2019)
    • Proposed by LL £1,550
    • Market rent around £1,500
    Maybe the friend could respond back to the LL that they are willing to discuss a rent adjustment but the proposed amount is more than the current market rent for similar properties.  Then counter-offer with, say £1,400.  The friend could try to buy some delay, for example "I won't be able to afford that change until April, when I will have my annual pay review at work."
    If the friend wants to stay and the LL wants the friend to stay at the property, that type of approach might be more amenable to maintaining a positive ongoing relationship.
  • GDB2222
    GDB2222 Posts: 25,984 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    Does the friend like and wish to stay in the property?
    Does the LL generally do the right thing in terms of responding to any issues that need to be addressed?
    Does the friend accept that some movement in the rent is appropriate?

    If the above three all get a "yes", then I would suggest that going to a rent tribunal to have the S13 determined as invalid might serve to get the LL's back up and sour relationships resulting in the friend leaving the property sooner rather than later.

    Once the invalid S13 is confirmed, the LL might revert to the rent increase clause in the contract which the OP has calculated would be a higher figure anyway.

    A more pragmatic option for the friend might be to seek to reach an agreed rent increase.
    • Currently £1,240 (since 2019)
    • Proposed by LL £1,550
    • Market rent around £1,500
    Maybe the friend could respond back to the LL that they are willing to discuss a rent adjustment but the proposed amount is more than the current market rent for similar properties.  Then counter-offer with, say £1,400.  The friend could try to buy some delay, for example "I won't be able to afford that change until April, when I will have my annual pay review at work."
    If the friend wants to stay and the LL wants the friend to stay at the property, that type of approach might be more amenable to maintaining a positive ongoing relationship.
    They are happy to move, if necessary. The LL has not been great, but there are no huge issues. And, yes, they realise that rents have gone up. 

    They already offered £1400, but that was brushed aside.

    Their current thinking is to go to the Tribunal and not mention that the application is invalid. They are happy for the tribunal to set a market rent. It’s also possible that, faced with a tribunal hearing, the LL will be a bit more flexible in their demands, and an amicable compromise can be reached. 


    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
  • If they intend to try to avoid the rent increase, why go to tribunal? Just continue paying the old rent.
    The S13 is invalid, so if/when the LL starts talking about rent arrears, T just points out the S13 was invalid so was ignored.

    LL will then either try to enforce the S13 renty (and lose), fall back on the RPI clause, or serve a S21. Very similar outcome to going to tribunal but without the faff.
  • macman
    macman Posts: 53,129 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Serving an S21 will fail, as providing the wrong edition of 'How to Rent' will invalidate it.
    No free lunch, and no free laptop ;)
  • MobileSaver
    MobileSaver Posts: 4,334 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    macman said:
    Serving an S21 will fail, as providing the wrong edition of 'How to Rent' will invalidate it.
    Which in truth is a pretty petty reason for the S21 to fail. 
    The irony of course is that it's stuff like this causing landlords to sell up which is one of the reasons rents are going through the roof and rentals are getting harder and harder to find...
    Every generation blames the one before...
    Mike + The Mechanics - The Living Years
  • theartfullodger
    theartfullodger Posts: 15,598 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 17 February 2024 at 6:32PM
    macman said:
    Serving an S21 will fail, as providing the wrong edition of 'How to Rent' will invalidate it.
    Which in truth is a pretty petty reason for the S21 to fail. 
    The irony of course is that it's stuff like this causing landlords to sell up which is one of the reasons rents are going through the roof and rentals are getting harder and harder to find...
    If landlords can't be a****d to comply with the law they have nobody to blame but themselves.
  • MobileSaver
    MobileSaver Posts: 4,334 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    macman said:
    Serving an S21 will fail, as providing the wrong edition of 'How to Rent' will invalidate it.
    Which in truth is a pretty petty reason for the S21 to fail. 
    The irony of course is that it's stuff like this causing landlords to sell up which is one of the reasons rents are going through the roof and rentals are getting harder and harder to find...
    If landlords can't be a****d to comply with the law they have nobody to blame but themselves.
    Do you think all motorists who drive at 31mph in a 30mph limit should also be penalised by the authorities or should rigidly complying with the law without any latitude for minor transgressions only apply to landlords?

    Every generation blames the one before...
    Mike + The Mechanics - The Living Years
  • Grumpy_chap
    Grumpy_chap Posts: 17,825 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    GDB2222 said:

    Their current thinking is to go to the Tribunal and not mention that the application is invalid. They are happy for the tribunal to set a market rent. It’s also possible that, faced with a tribunal hearing, the LL will be a bit more flexible in their demands, and an amicable compromise can be reached. 


    That all sounds rather a lot of effort given the LL has stated a rent increase to £1,550 and the T thinks the market rent is £1,500.  Those figures are so close, it will be hard for the tribunal to put a fag paper between them and the LL will be able to provide every bit of evidence to justify their price as the T can to fight it down.  
    Other than delaying, what does the T hope to gain by that?
    Plus, it will sour relationships.
Meet your Ambassadors

🚀 Getting Started

Hi new member!

Our Getting Started Guide will help you get the most out of the Forum

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 350K Banking & Borrowing
  • 252.7K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 453.1K Spending & Discounts
  • 243K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 619.9K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 176.4K Life & Family
  • 255.9K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 16.1K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards

Is this how you want to be seen?

We see you are using a default avatar. It takes only a few seconds to pick a picture.