Can anyone identify this shower please

silvercar

ThisIsWeird said:

silvercar said:

Boiler tested while shower was on, the boiler stays on the whole time the shower was on.

(Over) analysis by OH. The temperature gets hot, then cools down to warm and stay within a small range that he describes as warm, not hot enough and fluctuating within that range for the whole time.

The temp control is smooth.

Thanks. Just to confirm - the boiler stays on with its flame symbol or green 'burner' light always on? (Does it have one of these?!)
If so, it would certainly seem to be a shower mixer issue, and therefore most likely the thermo cartridge, tho' could be as simple as a partially blocked filter in its supply, usually fitted where the pipes connect.
Are you up for some DIY? 

Yes, I watched it the whole time. The flame symbol is lit up the whole time. 

I’m not up to the DIY on this. Thanks to all your help, I feel confident that it is a shower issue not the boiler. The question is whether it is worth me buying a new random cartridge that may be a match or if I should let the plumber fit a whole new unit. Chances are a whole unit will involve angle grinding some tiles out and replacing with whatever I can get hold of.

ThisIsWeird

If flame remains on throughout these temp cycles, then that would indeed suggest the boiler is fine, so the most obvious culprit is the thermo valve in the shower mixer.

I'd look up the nearest similar model, and find the installation instructions. Armed with that, you should hopefully be able to suss out whether a close replacement can be fitted without having to modify the recess or the tiles. This may require some light dismantling of your current mixer - Ie removal of the knobs, and pulling off the faceplate to reveal the actual valve.

If you are confident that it can be swapped for a whole new valve, then that is probably your best option, as the 'flow' control is also likely to be worn and half way through its life, and good chance you can buy a whole new unit for not much more than just the thermo part.
But, if full replacement will require 'grinding', I'd personally be looking at just replacing the cartridge! 
This will almost certainly require water off, knob off, unscrew cartridge, photos and dims, replace, water back on - find replacement.
Are you sure there aren't any isolating valves for just your shower? How do the pipes get to it? From the loft? In a cupboard next door?

silvercar

ThisIsWeird said:

I'd look up the nearest similar model, and find the installation instructions. Armed with that, you should hopefully be able to suss out where a close replacement can be fitted without having to modify the recess or the tiles. This may require some light dismantling - Ie removal of the knobs, and pulling off the face plate to reveal the actual valve.
If you are confident that it can be swapped for a whole new valve, then that is probably your best option, as the 'flow' control is also likely to be worn and half way through its life, and good chance you can but a whole new unit for not much more than just the thermo part.
But, if full replacement will require 'grinding', I'd personally be looking at just replacing the cartridge! 
This will almost certainly require water off, knob off, unscrew cartridge, photos and dims, replace, water back on - find replacement.
Are you sure there aren't any isolating valves for just your shower? How do the pipes get to it? From the loft? In a cupboard next door?

Thanks.

Can't find any isolating valves. the shower head comes from the ceiling, so in the loft with limited access as it's in an extension part of the house, so small hole in the wall that was the original outside wall of the house. And we've now had the main part well insulated so would be walking on beams to get there! How the pipes work from the controls to the head I don't know. 

Oops, that's a red herring, you are asking how to get to the control pipes. The sink is in a cupboard next to it and the sink pipes come up from under the floor with isolators very near the taps. So I'm assuming that the pipes to the shower come up from under the floor. It looks like a cement floor, though I can't be sure.

Ganga

Could you not turn off the main stopcock ,turn on the hot ad cold taps downstairs and then do the same on the washbasin plus turn on the shower ,this should drain the pipework ,then as suggested remove both levers /knobs off the shower ,remove the back plate ,this will give you access to the cartridge ,remove and inspect ,covered in crud ? clean or replace ,rebuild in reverse order and have a hot shower.

ThisIsWeird

silvercar said:

ThisIsWeird said:

I'd look up the nearest similar model, and find the installation instructions. Armed with that, you should hopefully be able to suss out where a close replacement can be fitted without having to modify the recess or the tiles. This may require some light dismantling - Ie removal of the knobs, and pulling off the face plate to reveal the actual valve.
If you are confident that it can be swapped for a whole new valve, then that is probably your best option, as the 'flow' control is also likely to be worn and half way through its life, and good chance you can but a whole new unit for not much more than just the thermo part.
But, if full replacement will require 'grinding', I'd personally be looking at just replacing the cartridge! 
This will almost certainly require water off, knob off, unscrew cartridge, photos and dims, replace, water back on - find replacement.
Are you sure there aren't any isolating valves for just your shower? How do the pipes get to it? From the loft? In a cupboard next door?

Thanks.

Can't find any isolating valves. the shower head comes from the ceiling, so in the loft with limited access as it's in an extension part of the house, so small hole in the wall that was the original outside wall of the house. And we've now had the main part well insulated so would be walking on beams to get there! How the pipes work from the controls to the head I don't know. 

Oops, that's a red herring, you are asking how to get to the control pipes. The sink is in a cupboard next to it and the sink pipes come up from under the floor with isolators very near the taps. So I'm assuming that the pipes to the shower come up from under the floor. It looks like a cement floor, though I can't be sure.

Yes, I meant the supply pipes :-) I was hoping you could isolate the shower, so you wouldn't have to turn off the whole water whilst you search for a replacement thermo cartridge - or possibly even sort the existing one by descaling. But, it sounds as tho' you cannot find any isolators for the shower? In that case, it's off at the mains stopcock for the duration of any investigation and/or repair.

It's possible that your plumber will be happy to pop in for a half-hour on the way to/from another job, whip out the cartridge to allow it to be measured/ID'd, and then shove it back in temporarily. And then ditto when a replacement has been sourced. Hang on - as long as the FLOW control is off, I bet you can remove the thermo cartridge without turning off the water? But I'm not sure...

silvercar

Ganga said:

Could you not turn off the main stopcock ,turn on the hot ad cold taps downstairs and then do the same on the washbasin plus turn on the shower ,this should drain the pipework ,then as suggested remove both levers /knobs off the shower ,remove the back plate ,this will give you access to the cartridge ,remove and inspect ,covered in crud ? clean or replace ,rebuild in reverse order and have a hot shower.

I would need to have 100% confidence that I could put it back together again, or I’m not going to be able to turn the water back on!

ThisIsWeird said:

silvercar said:

ThisIsWeird said:

I'd look up the nearest similar model, and find the installation instructions. Armed with that, you should hopefully be able to suss out where a close replacement can be fitted without having to modify the recess or the tiles. This may require some light dismantling - Ie removal of the knobs, and pulling off the face plate to reveal the actual valve.
If you are confident that it can be swapped for a whole new valve, then that is probably your best option, as the 'flow' control is also likely to be worn and half way through its life, and good chance you can but a whole new unit for not much more than just the thermo part.
But, if full replacement will require 'grinding', I'd personally be looking at just replacing the cartridge! 
This will almost certainly require water off, knob off, unscrew cartridge, photos and dims, replace, water back on - find replacement.
Are you sure there aren't any isolating valves for just your shower? How do the pipes get to it? From the loft? In a cupboard next door?

Thanks.

Can't find any isolating valves. the shower head comes from the ceiling, so in the loft with limited access as it's in an extension part of the house, so small hole in the wall that was the original outside wall of the house. And we've now had the main part well insulated so would be walking on beams to get there! How the pipes work from the controls to the head I don't know. 

Oops, that's a red herring, you are asking how to get to the control pipes. The sink is in a cupboard next to it and the sink pipes come up from under the floor with isolators very near the taps. So I'm assuming that the pipes to the shower come up from under the floor. It looks like a cement floor, though I can't be sure.

Yes, I meant the supply pipes :-) I was hoping you could isolate the shower, so you wouldn't have to turn off the whole water whilst you search for a replacement thermo cartridge - or possibly even sort the existing one by descaling. But, it sounds as tho' you cannot find any isolators for the shower? In that case, it's off at the mains stopcock for the duration of any investigation and/or repair.

It's possible that your plumber will be happy to pop in for a half-hour on the way to/from another job, whip out the cartridge to allow it to be measured/ID'd, and then shove it back in temporarily. And then ditto when a replacement has been sourced. Hang on - as long as the FLOW control is off, I bet you can remove the thermo cartridge without turning off the water? But I'm not sure...

To remove the thermo cartridge both handles and the back plate are going to have to come off, is there a risk that the flow tap could move in that process? 

I will chat to the plumber, I think the answer may be for me to buy a new shower that looks as similar to the one I have, then he can dismantle the old one and can clean it up and we can decide whether to put it back together if it looks like a good clean could solve the problems, otherwise I’d have the new one ready and hopefully it will fit in the gap without too much damage to the surround. If we need to replace some tiles then we will have to do so.

Ganga

silvercar said:

Ganga said:

Could you not turn off the main stopcock ,turn on the hot ad cold taps downstairs and then do the same on the washbasin plus turn on the shower ,this should drain the pipework ,then as suggested remove both levers /knobs off the shower ,remove the back plate ,this will give you access to the cartridge ,remove and inspect ,covered in crud ? clean or replace ,rebuild in reverse order and have a hot shower.

I would need to have 100% confidence that I could put it back together again, or I’m not going to be able to turn the water back on!

ThisIsWeird said:

silvercar said:

ThisIsWeird said:

I'd look up the nearest similar model, and find the installation instructions. Armed with that, you should hopefully be able to suss out where a close replacement can be fitted without having to modify the recess or the tiles. This may require some light dismantling - Ie removal of the knobs, and pulling off the face plate to reveal the actual valve.
If you are confident that it can be swapped for a whole new valve, then that is probably your best option, as the 'flow' control is also likely to be worn and half way through its life, and good chance you can but a whole new unit for not much more than just the thermo part.
But, if full replacement will require 'grinding', I'd personally be looking at just replacing the cartridge! 
This will almost certainly require water off, knob off, unscrew cartridge, photos and dims, replace, water back on - find replacement.
Are you sure there aren't any isolating valves for just your shower? How do the pipes get to it? From the loft? In a cupboard next door?

Thanks.

Can't find any isolating valves. the shower head comes from the ceiling, so in the loft with limited access as it's in an extension part of the house, so small hole in the wall that was the original outside wall of the house. And we've now had the main part well insulated so would be walking on beams to get there! How the pipes work from the controls to the head I don't know. 

Oops, that's a red herring, you are asking how to get to the control pipes. The sink is in a cupboard next to it and the sink pipes come up from under the floor with isolators very near the taps. So I'm assuming that the pipes to the shower come up from under the floor. It looks like a cement floor, though I can't be sure.

Yes, I meant the supply pipes :-) I was hoping you could isolate the shower, so you wouldn't have to turn off the whole water whilst you search for a replacement thermo cartridge - or possibly even sort the existing one by descaling. But, it sounds as tho' you cannot find any isolators for the shower? In that case, it's off at the mains stopcock for the duration of any investigation and/or repair.

It's possible that your plumber will be happy to pop in for a half-hour on the way to/from another job, whip out the cartridge to allow it to be measured/ID'd, and then shove it back in temporarily. And then ditto when a replacement has been sourced. Hang on - as long as the FLOW control is off, I bet you can remove the thermo cartridge without turning off the water? But I'm not sure...

To remove the thermo cartridge both handles and the back plate are going to have to come off, is there a risk that the flow tap could move in that process? 

I will chat to the plumber, I think the answer may be for me to buy a new shower that looks as similar to the one I have, then he can dismantle the old one and can clean it up and we can decide whether to put it back together if it looks like a good clean could solve the problems, otherwise I’d have the new one ready and hopefully it will fit in the gap without too much damage to the surround. If we need to replace some tiles then we will have to do so.

Can you not get the plumber to call round ,he will be able to examine the shower ,probably able to strip the controls down and make an educated guess weather it is repairable or needs replacing ,will even tell you which one you need with out damaging bathroom.

silvercar

Ganga said:

silvercar said:

Ganga said:

Could you not turn off the main stopcock ,turn on the hot ad cold taps downstairs and then do the same on the washbasin plus turn on the shower ,this should drain the pipework ,then as suggested remove both levers /knobs off the shower ,remove the back plate ,this will give you access to the cartridge ,remove and inspect ,covered in crud ? clean or replace ,rebuild in reverse order and have a hot shower.

I would need to have 100% confidence that I could put it back together again, or I’m not going to be able to turn the water back on!

ThisIsWeird said:

silvercar said:

ThisIsWeird said:

I'd look up the nearest similar model, and find the installation instructions. Armed with that, you should hopefully be able to suss out where a close replacement can be fitted without having to modify the recess or the tiles. This may require some light dismantling - Ie removal of the knobs, and pulling off the face plate to reveal the actual valve.
If you are confident that it can be swapped for a whole new valve, then that is probably your best option, as the 'flow' control is also likely to be worn and half way through its life, and good chance you can but a whole new unit for not much more than just the thermo part.
But, if full replacement will require 'grinding', I'd personally be looking at just replacing the cartridge! 
This will almost certainly require water off, knob off, unscrew cartridge, photos and dims, replace, water back on - find replacement.
Are you sure there aren't any isolating valves for just your shower? How do the pipes get to it? From the loft? In a cupboard next door?

Thanks.

Can't find any isolating valves. the shower head comes from the ceiling, so in the loft with limited access as it's in an extension part of the house, so small hole in the wall that was the original outside wall of the house. And we've now had the main part well insulated so would be walking on beams to get there! How the pipes work from the controls to the head I don't know. 

Oops, that's a red herring, you are asking how to get to the control pipes. The sink is in a cupboard next to it and the sink pipes come up from under the floor with isolators very near the taps. So I'm assuming that the pipes to the shower come up from under the floor. It looks like a cement floor, though I can't be sure.

Yes, I meant the supply pipes :-) I was hoping you could isolate the shower, so you wouldn't have to turn off the whole water whilst you search for a replacement thermo cartridge - or possibly even sort the existing one by descaling. But, it sounds as tho' you cannot find any isolators for the shower? In that case, it's off at the mains stopcock for the duration of any investigation and/or repair.

It's possible that your plumber will be happy to pop in for a half-hour on the way to/from another job, whip out the cartridge to allow it to be measured/ID'd, and then shove it back in temporarily. And then ditto when a replacement has been sourced. Hang on - as long as the FLOW control is off, I bet you can remove the thermo cartridge without turning off the water? But I'm not sure...

To remove the thermo cartridge both handles and the back plate are going to have to come off, is there a risk that the flow tap could move in that process? 

I will chat to the plumber, I think the answer may be for me to buy a new shower that looks as similar to the one I have, then he can dismantle the old one and can clean it up and we can decide whether to put it back together if it looks like a good clean could solve the problems, otherwise I’d have the new one ready and hopefully it will fit in the gap without too much damage to the surround. If we need to replace some tiles then we will have to do so.

Can you not get the plumber to call round ,he will be able to examine the shower ,probably able to strip the controls down and make an educated guess weather it is repairable or needs replacing ,will even tell you which one you need with out damaging bathroom.

The plumber was here fixing my toilet (see other thread) and his advice was that he needs to price up for replacing the lot and see what he can find that would be the nearest fit. He didn’t offer to take it all apart, I guess it would need re-siliconing it’s a result. 

Is 17 years a good lifespan for a thermostat/ shower? Just thinking if we may as well bite the bullet and get it all done. The annoying thing is that the shower is hot enough for me, OH complains it’s too cold for him, but maybe the cost/ mess may persuade him to put up with it. If it was that bad he would shower in the main bathroom! 

ThisIsWeird

Yes, 17 years is pretty decent. But still, a new thermo at, what, ~£35, and a flow cartridge at ~£20, will have it 'as new'.
The only other parts are decorative.
And I think - but ain't sure - that the faceplate can stay in place for this. If you at least remove the knob - almost certainly a case of unscrewing the lever part, and then probably finding a grub screw - you'll see if the cartridge is accessible.
If you need to remove the faceplate, then - yes - it'll need sealing back in place, but that's not a biggie.

Ganga

Well i have spent 30 minutes on Youtube and what you have to do is unscrew the pins sticking out of the knobs ,use an allen key to remove the bodies ,remove the faceplate retainers ,behind that should be two water flow isolators ,screw them in,test the water is off ,remove the grub screw holding the thermostatic valve in place ( note the thermostacic cartridge is part of the temp control ) remove the whole item with a spanner ,de-scale or replace ,re build in the opposite flow of this, best of luck ,this does not look too hard for a competent DIY,er .