Fixing Fence Issues - who owns what?

luli_tanner

Hello, I could really use some advice about how to tackle this situation. To be clear, we are friendly with both sets of neighbours.

I live in a semi detached victorian house, we think it was built between 1890-1900. We bought this house about 2 years ago, and it's a renovation project for our forever home. If you stand facing our front door, our neighbour to the right is attached to us, they've been there for about 5 years. The neighbours to the left of us (not attached) have been in their property for about 40-50 years. 

When we moved in, we removed a LOT of intensely overgrown ivy and other weeds from fencing that separates us from Left (unattached) Neighbour. Some of this fencing needs to be replaced as it was nearly destroyed by the vegetation, but the boundary is still in tact. These neighbours were happy we cut down the overgrowth (it was so bad half their garden was actually in shade because of it) We were informed by these neighbours this fence is our responsibility as they maintain the other side. 

In the storms about 2 weeks ago, the adjoining wooden fence between my garden and Right Neighbour (attached neighbour) blew over onto our side. The 'good' side of the garden faces our neighbour. We texted this neighbour to inform them the fence blew down, and that's a pain but it gives us the kick up the rear we need to get the front garden fixed up (it's overgrown and needs levelling out etc), so perhaps we can keep each other informed about plans for fixing the fence so we can coordinate garden work with fence fixing so no one wastes any money unnecessarily. They texted back to say they were under the impression this fence was our responsibility not theirs, they maintain the other side. 

I looked through our conveyancing docs from our solicitor and we have the following which is even more unhelpful:

- Our Title Plan (via Land Registry) for our house does not indicate who is responsible for upkeep of fences on either side of our property, it just marks the boundary lines all around which are correct. There are no T signs anywhere on the doc. 

- We have a questionnaire filled out by the previous owner of our house that states upkeep of the fences on both sides of the shared responsibility. However this is a questionnaire, not legally binding as far as I can tell. 

TLDR: So, we're now in a situation where both neighbours our neighbours think our adjoining fences on either side are our responsibility, but we also have a (possibly not legal) doc that states both sides are shared responsibility.

What on earth should we do next? Can we really be responsible for both sides? I don't see how that could be fair (but I also know life isn't fair) Or how can we convince our neighbours of shared responsibility if they've been in their properties for longer than we have been in ours?

I'm at a loss. I'd really appreciate some advice. Thank you. 

eddddy

It's unlikely that you or either of your neighbours have a legal duty to maintain any fences (unless it says so in the deeds).

So it's kind-of irrelevant who owns or 'is responsible' for the fences, if they say they're not going to maintain or replace them.

So realistically,  if you want a new fence on the boundary line, you have to try to agree with the neighbour whether you pay, they pay, or you share the costs.

Alternatively, if you can't reach agreement, you can build your own fence(s) just on your side of the boundary line(s) - to make your garden look nice.

Albermarle

I do not think there is an easy answer. If there are no markings on the title plans, then it is a shared responsibility with the neighbour. I do not think there is any legal avenue to pursue, it will be a matter of agreeing something with the neighbour(s) or just sorting it/paying for it yourself ( or doing nothing).

TELLIT01

I don't know if the fact that previous occupants of the OP's house taking responsibility for the fence will set any kind of legal precedent.  The best way forward is to get an agreement with the neighbour.

bluelad1927

In my limited experience there generally isn't a legal requirement  for a fence on a boundary  so it's just an agreement. I've always maintained the left hand side as you look at the house and give the good looking side to the neighbour. This makes sense with featherboard as there is no framework for anybody to climb into your propwrty

CliveOfIndia

As others have said - and this question crops up fairly regularly - there is no legal requirement to have a fence, or any other sort of boundary between two houses (unless it's specifically mentioned in the deeds, which would be highly unusual).  Usually the only requirement is for the boundary to be marked - this could be a bit of garden twine stretched between two canes.

If, as you say, you are friendly with the neighbours, the simplest option is to agree to pay half each for a new fence - which can often work well, as you both benefit from having the fence there.  The only other option is for you to sort it out yourself - and if you put the fence on your side of the boundary then it's wholly your responsibility going forwards, come what may.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Hello OP

Generally a fence belongs to whoever paid for it originally and as above, unless there is a covenant in the deeds to say otherwise, there isn't a responsibility to maintain or replace a fence.

One exception to this would be if one of your neighbours has dogs or such in which case they need to ensure their animals are kept under control one way or another (not necessarily a fence but that's the most common answer).

If this is your forever home my advice would be to install your own fence, concrete posts and gravel boards will last a very long time with perhaps panels needing to be charged after x years. 

By paying yourself you can decide exactly what you want, who to do the job and the fence would belong to you.

Pragmatic to mark out with sticks and a line where the new fence will go and then ask the neighbours if they are happy, if yes then all is well, if no as above just build one slightly inside your garden. 

Either way perhaps offering for them to keep an eye during the install again to ensure they can't complain after the fact it's 2 inches the wrong way. 

Sounds as if your detached neighbours are happy for you to go ahead and sort it out so hopefully no fuss.

Same applies on the other side if it comes up in the future.

IMHO I wouldn't get involved in half each, money and friends/family/neighbours often doesn't mix well, for what half a fence will cost I'd rather pay for it myself.  

TELLIT01

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

IMHO I wouldn't get involved in half each, money and friends/family/neighbours often doesn't mix well, for what half a fence will cost I'd rather pay for it myself.  

That depends on the length of the fence.  Our garden is over 150 feet long and fencing cost a *****ing fortune.

Ganga

Can you not invite both neighbours round for a cuppa and biscuits and have a chat about it ,you could point out (and show them your deeds ) that both fences are shared and see if they will contribute towards replacement ,if they say no then you know where you stand.

ThisIsWeird

We have a questionnaire filled out by the previous owner of our house that states upkeep of the fences on both sides of the shared responsibility. However this is a questionnaire, not legally binding as far as I can tell. 

TLDR: So, we're now in a situation where both neighbours our neighbours think our adjoining fences on either side are our responsibility, but we also have a (possibly not legal) doc that states both sides are shared responsibility.

Hi Luli.

Currently, yup, this is unfair on you! That's not to say it isn't 'correct', but chances are that it isn't. I suspect something has gone wrong somewhere in the past.

First, to reiterate some facts stated by others: Unless the deeds specifically state that you must, there is no legal requirement for anyone to put up a physical boundary. The exception being, as stated before, if one party needs to contain their wild animals and children. In that event, the person who needs to retain is responsible for a physical barrier, regardless of what the deeds map (T's and stuff) might say.

A lot of folk don't realise this - including my neighbour, whose ex-wife visited him with her dawg, and she remonstrated with my wife about the fence I'd yet to repair following storm 'arry. This witch not only did not live next door any more, but expected me to fix the fence pdq because she visited with her dawg! Grrr. Being well scary, tho', I did what I was told...

Obviously, there is a moral duty to put up fences, and I'm sure that's what's driving you too.

Ok, how to work out who is responsible for each fence. Since the deeds don't say, then you are effectively stuffed. Since there is no obligation to put up a physical fence, then anyone can just say 'non'. There can be various clues towards ownership & responsibility, but nothing writ in stone. For instance, convention suggests that the 'nice' side of a fence is set up to face the neighbour. In reality, this will be a lottery. For instance, I gave my nice neighb at t'bottom on our garden the nice side, but the witch's side fence the bum side. So, it means now't. :-)

Then there's the physical position of the fence. If you can work out the exact position of the invisible boundary line - and with a semi-detached, this should be very possible - then anything placed fully on one side of that line belongs to that land owner. That still doesn't mean that they have any responsibility to maintain it, but just that they 'own' it, so the other party cannot touch it. If, instead, the physical fence is placed to straddle that invisible line, that makes it a 'party' fence, usually with a shared responsibility.

So, if you work out where - exactly - your semi joins theirs, then see where the existing fence lies in relation to that 'join', ie boundary. Your side, their side, or straddle?

Your LH detached neighb's boundary line is unlikely to be determinable to the required inch, so all you have to go by there is the presence of the old fence, but that doesn't tell you on whose side it sits, or who has responsibility for it.

So, you could look wider than this - usually the 'fencing convention' will be common to the whole street, and even the wider 'hood. So, if you knock on every door and ask, "Which fence do you consider to be your responsibility?", and everyone replies for example, "The LH one, obvs", then there's a very good chance you can then point to which of your neighbours has got it wrong. You may even hear, "Oh, we share the responsibility - they are party/straddling fences", in which case your vendor may have got it right - they are all shared.

Bear in mind that one house on each street will be different; one of the end properties will almost certainly have responsibility for both their sides. If you find out which house that is, then it'll suggest that their other fence - the one not on the street's end - sets the 'convention' for that street. That make sense?

So, most rows of houses will share the same convention, and you just need to find out what that convention is :-) If you do find such a convention/consistency on your street (other than with one of your neighbours) then good luck breaking the news to them...

Soooo, what to do? I'd try and discover the convention for your street. If there is agreement - other than one of your neighbs - then all you can do is to approach that neighbour and explain your findings. But, be ready for them to say 'non'.

The alternatives would appear to be:

1) The street does have a shared convention, and one of your neighbours (possibly more) has got this wrong.

2) If your house is in the middle of the street, is there a possibility that your fences are shared, but then the fences take on a sole responsibility as the houses run off to each street end? Ie, this is a way of preventing one of the end houses having two fence to look after! Surely not...

What to do? Not a lot that you can. But carry out as much research as you feel like - with your 'semi' neighb, do ID the exact boundary line (presumably the line of symmetry), and then see where the existing fence sits in relation to this. And, see what the other houses say.

If your research does suggest that one of your neighbs got it wrong - ie the whole of the street disagrees with their viewpoint - then it's your call whether to broach this with them.

Other than that, you take it on the chin and build two - probably three - fences :-(

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

TELLIT01 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

IMHO I wouldn't get involved in half each, money and friends/family/neighbours often doesn't mix well, for what half a fence will cost I'd rather pay for it myself.  

That depends on the length of the fence.  Our garden is over 150 feet long and fencing cost a *****ing fortune.

Indeed, but I still rather foot the bill than split it.  

Hopefully, as OP has purchased a renovation project, they have some DIY skills and can install their own fence cutting out the labour cost.