Boiler less than 3 years old but has been condemned, any legal standing against the manufacturer?

Bendo

Xbigman said:

Warranties aren't the end of a manufacturers liability. I'm not an expert but I believe the correct phrase is that any product must be of 'merchantable quality'. In the case of a boiler costing thousands it shouldn't fail completely after 3 years. You need to get ideal out and get a proper report done. If its one part then you'll need to pay, if Ideal condemn the boiler I'd expect a replacement. 


Darren

Unless the OP bought it from Ideal, he has no relationship with them. His contract is with whoever he bought the house from and its on them to sort. But is he wants it sorted his best option is to simply get in a competent engineer.

Corbula

So the it wasn't Ideal who did the service and condemned it it was a local gas safe registered firm I found on check a trade.

They said that the high pitched kettleing noise was common on Ideal boilers when the main heat exchanger gets build up. It would be expensive to replace and there's no guarantee that the boiler it would solve the issue. 

It was the gas test that he's had to condemn it because of (I don't know if the two issues are connected or separate).

I'm going to get a second opinion from someone (not Ideal) and see what they say.

Ideal aren't interested in the slightest and gave me these options. 

Firstly, you could arrange a one off repair with us at the standard charge of £345. If the engineer can’t fix your boiler you would have to pay a fixed call out charge of £99 and the rest will be refunded. This option has a 30 day labour guarantee and 12 month guarantee on any parts replaced. This means if the engineer fixes the boiler on the first visit and the boiler breaks down again in the next 30 days then we would attend free of charge, after the 30 days again the repair is fully chargeable at £345 and if we attend the property and find the same parts are at the fault from the first visit we would keep £99 as a call out fee and refund the rest of the £345. If new parts are required we would retain the full £345.

 

Our second and most popular option is one of the repair and care maintenance support plans which offers additional benefits that the first option doesn’t. this takes case of the repair that is required today with no upfront cost and if your boiler is fixed, we will continue to provide ongoing maintenance and support for the next 6 months. An additional benefit of the repair and care plan is that it includes a no fix no fee benefit for the first repair, so if we can’t fix the boiler now or it is deemed beyond economical repair or if the repair would cost more than £500 your plan would be cancelled and any money paid would be fully refunded. If the maintenance should fail within those 6 months, give us a call and we would reattend to repair it. But if we can’t fix the boiler from the second visit on you would receive a replacement up to the value of £750. This option is £58.99 a month for 6 months totalling at £353.94 inclusive of parts, labour and call out charges. So, for the difference of £8.94p you do receive those additional benefits.

 

The main exclusions are sludge and blockages, hidden inaccessible pipework, cosmetic damage and damage caused by accidents, scale damage and indirect costs. An example of an indirect cost would be if the boiler was inoperative and we couldn’t get an engineer out to you in what you considered a suitable time frame and you decided to check yourself into a hotel room, we wouldn’t reimburse for the costs of that hotel room.  Repairs are limited to a total annual cost of £1500 and if we can’t fix the boiler on the second visit on, you would receive a replacement up to the value of £750 but that is not including the cost of installation. You can cancel within 14 days of receiving your documentation and receive a full refund, however if you cancel after the engineer has visited you would have to pay the cost of the repair service. When your plan does come to an end, your protection will automatically continue. Domestic and general (the policy providers) will write to you within 21 days of the plan coming to an end, with a renewal letter if you wasn’t wanting to continue all you would do is call domestic and general and cancel it down, with no additional charges.

Bendo

A decent local guy will be able to identify why its spilling POC and sort it. The fact the guy who serviced it had to speak to his boss before condeming it suggests he wasn't exactly experienced or confident.

Check your local Facebook groups for recommendations.

Xbigman

Bendo said:

Xbigman said:

Warranties aren't the end of a manufacturers liability. I'm not an expert but I believe the correct phrase is that any product must be of 'merchantable quality'. In the case of a boiler costing thousands it shouldn't fail completely after 3 years. You need to get ideal out and get a proper report done. If its one part then you'll need to pay, if Ideal condemn the boiler I'd expect a replacement. 


Darren

Unless the OP bought it from Ideal, he has no relationship with them. His contract is with whoever he bought the house from and its on them to sort. But is he wants it sorted his best option is to simply get in a competent engineer.

Yes.
Who it was purchased from, who fitted it and who made it are 3 different companies. A report from the manufacturer condemning it is the first step. Who holds the liability for the non merchantable quality is probably the housebuilder but the manufacturers report should clarify exactly what has happened. The OP needs to take it from there. A second opinion is a good idea but it needs to be from someone who actually fixes boilers. There seem to be increasing numbers of gas engineers around who just stick probes in the flue and do little else.


Darren

doodling

Hi,

Xbigman said:

Bendo said:

Xbigman said:

Warranties aren't the end of a manufacturers liability. I'm not an expert but I believe the correct phrase is that any product must be of 'merchantable quality'. In the case of a boiler costing thousands it shouldn't fail completely after 3 years. You need to get ideal out and get a proper report done. If its one part then you'll need to pay, if Ideal condemn the boiler I'd expect a replacement. 


Darren

Unless the OP bought it from Ideal, he has no relationship with them. His contract is with whoever he bought the house from and its on them to sort. But is he wants it sorted his best option is to simply get in a competent engineer.

Yes.
Who it was purchased from, who fitted it and who made it are 3 different companies. A report from the manufacturer condemning it is the first step. Who holds the liability for the non merchantable quality is probably the housebuilder but the manufacturers report should clarify exactly what has happened. The OP needs to take it from there. A second opinion is a good idea but it needs to be from someone who actually fixes boilers. There seem to be increasing numbers of gas engineers around who just stick probes in the flue and do little else.


Darren

The odds are that the house was sold without any warranty as to merchantable quality (as is normal for house sales) and consequently there will be no one liable for failure of the boiler.

If the failure is related to CO levels then that suggests incorrect gas flow or air supply configuration - fixing that is unlikely to require a spare part of such a value that the boiler cannot economically repaired 

ecraig

Would it be worth to get a second opinion?
our new build also has an ideal boiler. Horrible cheap thing.
we also had high pitch noise, but it sounded more like a flute. A replacement gas valve was needed.
the fixed fee repair with ideal is quite pricey, but you then get a full 6 months cover through them.
i very much doubt your house builder will be interested in helping out. At 3 years they have no liability or responsibility. Just resonating from my experience…

Hoenir

Did you have the boiler serviced annually in 2022 and 2023 ?  

Corbula

I got the boiler serviced in 2022 but not 2023 due to other life things going on at the time.

I've managed to find a couple of connections through the family and spoke to an Ideal engineer. He says he can fix it and sounds like a gas mixture problem. Thinks it should be between £200 - £400 worst case as long as there's no issue with the heat exchanger. Going to get him to come and look and just pay for a repair rather than the service plan through Ideal I think.

He also said that the heat exchanger should be cleaned when it's probably serviced but most don't. Sounds accurate if it's got buildup and is causing the sounds, especially in our area of harder water. 

FreeBear

Corbula said: He also said that the heat exchanger should be cleaned when it's probably serviced but most don't. Sounds accurate if it's got buildup and is causing the sounds, especially in our area of harder water. 

Turn the flow & DHW temperatures down as low as practical (50-60°C), and that will reduce the amount of scale buildup inside the heat exchanger(s).

In a hard water area myself, and keep water temperatures down fairly low. Ripped out the old DHW cyclinder (30+ years old) and cut it open. Very little scale inside.

Scot_39

I'd get it repaired by local certified firm or manufacturer then issue a claim under "fitness for purpose / merchantable quality" consumer protection - if a major component that costs a lot - but suspect that would need to be against the builder not the manufacturer.

But not sure if applies given comment above that houses are not subject to merchantable quality - which could then encompass goods included - which is truly shocking and may explain why so many are reported as being built badly.

Who is the person you bought it from - just as you would if had bought goods from a retailer approach the retailer initially.

That ultimately though could need a claim via small claims court - the maximum limit for which is iirc 6 years for what should be a durable item ( not a cheap £10 smart price kettle for instance)

Things are of course likely to fail at any time - some will fail very quickly if bad - often in days weeks - well within warranty - sone just beyond and some not for many years (which is why failure rate calcs used in industry use statistical averages e.g. complex mixes of mean time between failures for sub components when making selling complex goods or systems).

The warranty is not the only protection the law offer consumers.  But it is not as easy out of warranty.  

But the fact the manufacturers are only giving 2 years - the EU mandated minimum on many goods - speaks volumes. 
Others offer far longer - WB combis come with 7-10 years guarantees iirc their quotes from a few years ago (subject I guess to regular servicing) often with an extension if fitted by one of their accredited suppliers - think one offered mum upto 12 years.  Mum insisted she wanted to use S Gas - I couldnt sway her with projected savings.