Costs of moving home to settle Estate, can this be claimed from the Estate?

Marcon

BYF said:

BooJewels said:

@BYF - that was why I said about the two siblings becoming landlords and perhaps not wanting to be - it has its own potential perils, but beyond my personal sphere of knowledge. 

I understand the figures now - I wondered where 35% suddenly appeared from - I had less than 25% in mind until recent posts - I see that a third of the 35% is already your Mum's.   A life interest in the property by a deed of variation sounds the most practical solution - but when one party has other ideas, you just end up in an impasse.  Funny how it's always the relatives with what seems to be the least right, ends up making the most demands.

Perhaps a discussion with some sort of mediation might help - someone informed like a solicitor, who could make potential suggestions.  A quick look shows that there are mediation services for inheritance and property issues.

Mediation is something I'll bear in mind, we need to have some more conversations before that point, hopefully we can come to some arrangement. 

Mediation has an excellent success rate in this sort of situation, at a surprisingly modest cost, so is well worth a go if you can't come to a satisfactory conclusion yourselves. You need a trained mediator, not just an 'informed third party' - it's a specialist role. 

BooJewels

Marcon said:

BYF said:

BooJewels said:

@BYF - that was why I said about the two siblings becoming landlords and perhaps not wanting to be - it has its own potential perils, but beyond my personal sphere of knowledge. 

I understand the figures now - I wondered where 35% suddenly appeared from - I had less than 25% in mind until recent posts - I see that a third of the 35% is already your Mum's.   A life interest in the property by a deed of variation sounds the most practical solution - but when one party has other ideas, you just end up in an impasse.  Funny how it's always the relatives with what seems to be the least right, ends up making the most demands.

Perhaps a discussion with some sort of mediation might help - someone informed like a solicitor, who could make potential suggestions.  A quick look shows that there are mediation services for inheritance and property issues.

Mediation is something I'll bear in mind, we need to have some more conversations before that point, hopefully we can come to some arrangement. 

Mediation has an excellent success rate in this sort of situation, at a surprisingly modest cost, so is well worth a go if you can't come to a satisfactory conclusion yourselves. You need a trained mediator, not just an 'informed third party' - it's a specialist role. 

When I made the suggestion, I'd done a search and looked at the web sites of a couple of companies that settle disputes of this very nature.  I thought, considering how often this sort of issue arises in this forum, it must be an area where there is a need, so likely to lead to such services being offered - which is the case.  It also needs to be someone who understands property and the legal options available - not just a referee.

techphobe

Your mum is mid 70s and it sounds like the property needs some maintenance.  Is the property likely to be suitable for her to live in as she ages over the next decade or is she likely to need to move anyway as her mobility and care needs change? Does she have the cash on hand to keep maintaining and running it solo? If it won’t be suitable for her for the next decade it might be wiser for her to move now to a sheltered housing place or a bungalow so she has time to settle in while well (or as well as she will ever be). She sounds open to moving which a lot of elderly people are often very resistant to so that is a good thing. 

Re the siblings they all need to get together (possibly with you there to make sure all pertinent facts are shared) and work through the options rather than Disgruntled only talk via Amenable. If D hasn’t seen your mum for decades, he won’t think twice about wanting his inheritance in cash. If he’s had a cup of tea with her and realizes him getting his 12% will involve an elderly lady having to sell her home of x years and move to the opposite end of town thus depriving other elderly sibling of his only source of support he might become more amenable to waiting till your mum passes away. Of course whether the 12% share he now has is worth £12k or £120k will also have a bearing on this. 

You can also discuss how to legally give your mum right to stay there for her lifetime should they be open to that. They would then get their money eventually.  And if Amenable wants to do that with his share so he can benefit from your mum being able to care for him then you only have to find 12% to buy out Disgruntled which is easier than finding 24%. You would need to think about the funding of maintenance and repairs though. 

Finally many people don’t understand how long an estate can take to wind up especially if there is no will. Disgruntled could think this should be sorted by now so the meeting can be used to manage his expectations re timelines to him receiving any cash even if he does push for a sale. Then everyone can take time to work out what’s best. 

Malthusian

BYF said:

So mum owns just over three quarters of the property, legally can she really be forced to sell up with all the upheaval and costs involved? Surely she would have the overall say of what happens to the property being the majority owner.

As others have said, yes she can be and no she doesn't. Property ownership isn't a democracy. 

Owning 76.7% of the property means buying the other owners out costs roughly half of what it would cost if she owned 50%. But it doesn't mean she can simply sit on the other owners' 23.3% of the asset and tell them to lump it.

Keep_pedalling said:

The only people who really get upset at ER, are people who find they are not going to inherit as much as they thought they would, there is no down side to the person taking out the loan. 

Although it's a tangent, I just want to point out that this is not always true; equity release can have significant downsides to the person taking out the loan. In particular, it can severely restrict the money available for downsizing or long term care. The rolled-up interest and interest upon interest nearly always costs more than the owner thinks it will.

BYF

techphobe said:

Your mum is mid 70s and it sounds like the property needs some maintenance.  Is the property likely to be suitable for her to live in as she ages over the next decade or is she likely to need to move anyway as her mobility and care needs change? Does she have the cash on hand to keep maintaining and running it solo? If it won’t be suitable for her for the next decade it might be wiser for her to move now to a sheltered housing place or a bungalow so she has time to settle in while well (or as well as she will ever be). She sounds open to moving which a lot of elderly people are often very resistant to so that is a good thing. 

Re the siblings they all need to get together (possibly with you there to make sure all pertinent facts are shared) and work through the options rather than Disgruntled only talk via Amenable. If D hasn’t seen your mum for decades, he won’t think twice about wanting his inheritance in cash. If he’s had a cup of tea with her and realizes him getting his 12% will involve an elderly lady having to sell her home of x years and move to the opposite end of town thus depriving other elderly sibling of his only source of support he might become more amenable to waiting till your mum passes away. Of course whether the 12% share he now has is worth £12k or £120k will also have a bearing on this. 

You can also discuss how to legally give your mum right to stay there for her lifetime should they be open to that. They would then get their money eventually.  And if Amenable wants to do that with his share so he can benefit from your mum being able to care for him then you only have to find 12% to buy out Disgruntled which is easier than finding 24%. You would need to think about the funding of maintenance and repairs though. 

Finally many people don’t understand how long an estate can take to wind up especially if there is no will. Disgruntled could think this should be sorted by now so the meeting can be used to manage his expectations re timelines to him receiving any cash even if he does push for a sale. Then everyone can take time to work out what’s best. 

Thank you for taking your time to post that, it's helped me gain a clearer picture of everything and some workable suggestions to explore. Once we get the valuation completed a get together with the siblings is going to save time and hassle instead of back and forth via solicitors. 

Future maintenance costs of the property is definitely something we need to consider here, at the moment I'm living at the property as my mum needs some support as she has not been well on and off and I'm able to help out financially. It's also nearer to her very elderly sibling that I visit daily. I still have my own place that needs paying for too, which unfortunately I cannot rent out due to lease conditions.

BYF

Malthusian said:

BYF said:

So mum owns just over three quarters of the property, legally can she really be forced to sell up with all the upheaval and costs involved? Surely she would have the overall say of what happens to the property being the majority owner.

As others have said, yes she can be and no she doesn't. Property ownership isn't a democracy. 

Owning 76.7% of the property means buying the other owners out costs roughly half of what it would cost if she owned 50%. But it doesn't mean she can simply sit on the other owners' 23.3% of the asset and tell them to lump it.

Keep_pedalling said:

The only people who really get upset at ER, are people who find they are not going to inherit as much as they thought they would, there is no down side to the person taking out the loan. 

Although it's a tangent, I just want to point out that this is not always true; equity release can have significant downsides to the person taking out the loan. In particular, it can severely restrict the money available for downsizing or long term care. The rolled-up interest and interest upon interest nearly always costs more than the owner thinks it will.

Thanks for clarifying this, and although most likely not practical in this situation could the other siblings sell their shares of the property on the open market or to friends/family in order to unlock the funds or does the whole property have to be sold?

elsien

I can’t see anyone on the open market, wanting to buy a part share in a property which someone else is living in and who will remain there for the foreseeable.There is absolutely no benefit to them at all.
Friends or family could buy out siblings if everyone was agreeable and had the money to do so. Whether they’d be able to get a mortgage or not is it a different matter.