No work/income since early October: will gateway intervention coach conclude I'm not gainfully SE?

ColonelCabbage

Hiring went down 50 or 60% in IT during 2023 and highly skilled people are struggling to get hired for the first time in many years. As a result, I've been looking for work since early October (can show my job applications) and got no income since then.

Since I have no income to report for the last three months, is it possible that the coach at the gateway intervention might conclude that I'm not gainfully self-employed?

(for the record I've been SE since 2011 and worked for most of the time since then, with a few exceptions including the current one)

MeteredOut

Many in IT are not self employed per se, but are directors of their own PSC (Ltd company).  From reading the page linked below, a director falls under the same SE test when applying for UC, but its probably best its 100% clear so others can give their thoughts.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-and-self-employment-quick-guide/universal-credit-and-self-employment-quick-guide

(If you are a PSC, i assume that company has no assets of any real worth?)

From that page (which I assume you have read):

What being ‘gainfully self-employed’ means

At your self-employed interview, we will decide if you’re ‘gainfully self-employed’.

You’re ‘gainfully self-employed’ if your self-employed work is:

• your main job or main source of income
• organised, for example you keep records of your business activities
• developed, for example you have a business plan or are advertising the work you do
• regular, for example you have steady work now and in future
• expected to make a profit

If you can prove all these things, you are considered ‘gainfully self-employed’. This means you do not have to look for other work.

If you cannot prove all these things, you may have to look for other work if you want to claim Universal Credit.

ColonelCabbage

MeteredOut said:

Many in IT are not self employed per se, but are directors of their own PSC (Ltd company).  From reading the page linked below, a director falls under the same SE test when applying for UC, but its probably best its 100% clear so others can give their thoughts.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-and-self-employment-quick-guide/universal-credit-and-self-employment-quick-guide

(If you are a PSC, i assume that company has no assets of any real worth?)

From that page (which I assume you have read):

What being ‘gainfully self-employed’ means

At your self-employed interview, we will decide if you’re ‘gainfully self-employed’.

You’re ‘gainfully self-employed’ if your self-employed work is:

• your main job or main source of income
• organised, for example you keep records of your business activities
• developed, for example you have a business plan or are advertising the work you do
• regular, for example you have steady work now and in future
• expected to make a profit

If you can prove all these things, you are considered ‘gainfully self-employed’. This means you do not have to look for other work.

If you cannot prove all these things, you may have to look for other work if you want to claim Universal Credit.

Oh thanks but I'm just a sole trader / freelancer working almost exclusively on Upwork since ten years ago.

MeteredOut

ColonelCabbage said:

MeteredOut said:

Many in IT are not self employed per se, but are directors of their own PSC (Ltd company).  From reading the page linked below, a director falls under the same SE test when applying for UC, but its probably best its 100% clear so others can give their thoughts.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-and-self-employment-quick-guide/universal-credit-and-self-employment-quick-guide

(If you are a PSC, i assume that company has no assets of any real worth?)

From that page (which I assume you have read):

What being ‘gainfully self-employed’ means

At your self-employed interview, we will decide if you’re ‘gainfully self-employed’.

You’re ‘gainfully self-employed’ if your self-employed work is:

• your main job or main source of income
• organised, for example you keep records of your business activities
• developed, for example you have a business plan or are advertising the work you do
• regular, for example you have steady work now and in future
• expected to make a profit

If you can prove all these things, you are considered ‘gainfully self-employed’. This means you do not have to look for other work.

If you cannot prove all these things, you may have to look for other work if you want to claim Universal Credit.

Oh thanks but I'm just a sole trader / freelancer working almost exclusively on Upwork since ten years ago.

Thanks, when you said "hiring", I thought you meant an IT role, not bid-work. I'm actually surprised anyone has been able to make a living purely from Upwork, since so much of the bids come from offshore where UK prices can be vastly undercut.

Do you pass the 5 tests listed on the link i sent above?

Good luck with your UC claim.

chanz4

can you not go to an employed IT contract work?

ColonelCabbage

MeteredOut said:

ColonelCabbage said:

MeteredOut said:

Many in IT are not self employed per se, but are directors of their own PSC (Ltd company).  From reading the page linked below, a director falls under the same SE test when applying for UC, but its probably best its 100% clear so others can give their thoughts.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-and-self-employment-quick-guide/universal-credit-and-self-employment-quick-guide

(If you are a PSC, i assume that company has no assets of any real worth?)

From that page (which I assume you have read):

What being ‘gainfully self-employed’ means

At your self-employed interview, we will decide if you’re ‘gainfully self-employed’.

You’re ‘gainfully self-employed’ if your self-employed work is:

• your main job or main source of income
• organised, for example you keep records of your business activities
• developed, for example you have a business plan or are advertising the work you do
• regular, for example you have steady work now and in future
• expected to make a profit

If you can prove all these things, you are considered ‘gainfully self-employed’. This means you do not have to look for other work.

If you cannot prove all these things, you may have to look for other work if you want to claim Universal Credit.

Oh thanks but I'm just a sole trader / freelancer working almost exclusively on Upwork since ten years ago.

Thanks, when you said "hiring", I thought you meant an IT role, not bid-work. I'm actually surprised anyone has been able to make a living purely from Upwork, since so much of the bids come from offshore where UK prices can be vastly undercut.

Do you pass the 5 tests listed on the link i sent above?

Good luck with your UC claim.

@MeteredOut I mostly except:
- I'm not advertising, just apply for gig jobs either on LinkedIn/Indeed/etc or Upwork, in general several times a week.

- I do not have steady work since over 3 months ago
- I've never made more than £19k per month
What do you think based on that?

@chanz4 I have a syndrome that makes commuting and regular full-time work very difficult so I work from home 7 days a week for ~5h a day when there's work and those 5 hours are spread throughout the entire daytime. Basically a highly unusual way of working that is suited to my condition. 

Spoonie_Turtle

ColonelCabbage said:

MeteredOut said:

ColonelCabbage said:

MeteredOut said:

Many in IT are not self employed per se, but are directors of their own PSC (Ltd company).  From reading the page linked below, a director falls under the same SE test when applying for UC, but its probably best its 100% clear so others can give their thoughts.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/universal-credit-and-self-employment-quick-guide/universal-credit-and-self-employment-quick-guide

(If you are a PSC, i assume that company has no assets of any real worth?)

From that page (which I assume you have read):

What being ‘gainfully self-employed’ means

At your self-employed interview, we will decide if you’re ‘gainfully self-employed’.

You’re ‘gainfully self-employed’ if your self-employed work is:

• your main job or main source of income
• organised, for example you keep records of your business activities
• developed, for example you have a business plan or are advertising the work you do
• regular, for example you have steady work now and in future
• expected to make a profit

If you can prove all these things, you are considered ‘gainfully self-employed’. This means you do not have to look for other work.

If you cannot prove all these things, you may have to look for other work if you want to claim Universal Credit.

Oh thanks but I'm just a sole trader / freelancer working almost exclusively on Upwork since ten years ago.

Thanks, when you said "hiring", I thought you meant an IT role, not bid-work. I'm actually surprised anyone has been able to make a living purely from Upwork, since so much of the bids come from offshore where UK prices can be vastly undercut.

Do you pass the 5 tests listed on the link i sent above?

Good luck with your UC claim.

@MeteredOut I mostly except:
- I'm not advertising, just apply for gig jobs either on LinkedIn/Indeed/etc or Upwork, in general several times a week.

- I do not have steady work since over 3 months ago
- I've never made more than £19k per month
What do you think based on that?

@chanz4 I have a syndrome that makes commuting and regular full-time work very difficult so I work from home 7 days a week for ~5h a day when there's work and those 5 hours are spread throughout the entire daytime. Basically a highly unusual way of working that is suited to my condition. 

Is that a typo? 

I don't know how the market is in the exact type of work you do but I know several people who work (employed) in IT fully from home, some for health reasons and others purely by choice.  Although not all of them get to choose when they work their hours.  But I would hate to presume you hadn't considered or looked for employed roles like that - although maybe you haven't as you've never needed to before now.

huckster

May depend on track record over last 2 years and also about how health impacts on capability to work.

If earnings have been over national minimum wage equivalent during recent years and health still enables working, then  decision should be that this is gainful self employment. Yes sometimes work dries up in some lines of work, but if the person is committed to finding new work, the they should be allowed to do so. I doubt the Job Centre can determine that the type of work is not available, find the person not gainfully self employed and issue a commitment to find other forms of employment.

ColonelCabbage

huckster said:

May depend on track record over last 2 years and also about how health impacts on capability to work.

If earnings have been over national minimum wage equivalent during recent years and health still enables working, then  decision should be that this is gainful self employment. Yes sometimes work dries up in some lines of work, but if the person is committed to finding new work, the they should be allowed to do so. I doubt the Job Centre can determine that the type of work is not available, find the person not gainfully self employed and issue a commitment to find other forms of employment.

I made ~£19k in tax years 2021-22 and 2022-23. Before that I made a lot less. And current tax year I made £9k so far.

@Spoonie_Turtle yes it was a typo haha, it was per year. The issue is that due to my health, regular full-time work is extremely hard for me. I declared working 36h/week in my claim but the truth is that it's very difficult for me to reach that amount even working from home. Basically it involves working 7 days a week for about 5h per day, and these 5h are spread throughout the entire daytime waking hours (an hour in the morning, 2h after lunch then 2h after dinner for example). I'd like to tell gateway intervention coach that 20h/week seems a lot more compatible with my condition, but won't that affect my claim or my payments?

Hermann

ColonelCabbage said:

Hiring went down 50 or 60% in IT during 2023 and highly skilled people are struggling to get hired for the first time in many years. As a result, I've been looking for work since early October (can show my job applications) and got no income since then.

Since I have no income to report for the last three months, is it possible that the coach at the gateway intervention might conclude that I'm not gainfully self-employed?

(for the record I've been SE since 2011 and worked for most of the time since then, with a few exceptions including the current one)

Aside from the gainful self employment question are you aware of the 'minimum income floor' that UC use for the self employed?

If it applies to you then that alone may mean you get no UC depending on circumstances so worth checking on that as well.

Some info... https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/universal-credit/on-universal-credit/how-universal-credit-payments-work-if-youre-self-employed/

sheramber

If your health prevents you working 36 hours could you get a fit note from your GP stating you are only able to work 20 hour?