Any lawyers out there - eBay scam

dfogarty

Last July I sold a bike on eBay. The bike sold for £155 and the buyer came to collect it. he took it for a test ride down to the end of the street, declared himself happy, scanned the QR Code to acknowledge collection and drove off with his new bike. Ebay took its cut and I was left with my £130ish - much needed!

Three weeks later, I get a notification from eBay that he wants his money back because the bike is not as described. He says that the rear rotor is bent because the brake pads are not the original ones that came with the bike. I respectfully decline the request and point out that I had never mentioned anything about brake pads or whatever, and that he’d taken it for a quick ride almost a month ago and declared himself happy.

A couple of weeks later, I get a request from eBay saying that he’s raised a dispute alleging that he never received the bike. This was easily dealt with and ebay closed this dispute. It turns out that it had actually been raised through PayPal. The next day, I get notification of a second dispute, once again alleging that the product was not as described. I reply once again saying that this is becoming a nuisance and explaining that the bike was sold in good faith, test ride etc. this dispute is raised by his bank.

I wait about eight weeks. In November, I am told that the buyer’s bank finds against me and I have to refund £155…which I don’t have. I call ebay. I’m spoken to by an argumentative, aggressive CS rep who hangs up on me. I call back and speak to someone else. They assure me that I do not have to pay anything, neither fees nor the £155. I ask for it in writing and they send me an email with words to that effect. I have this email.

Over the next two weeks, i receive regular demands for payment. Each time, I ring ebay and spend on average 40 minutes explaining my situation. Sometimes I am told that there’s nothing I can do and that I have to pay. One time I am told that eBay need me to verify my bank details before they can consider my request that they waive these sums. I decline this because I am concerned that if they have my bank details, they will just take the £155 and I can’t do anything about it. In reply, I get an email saying that the situation is resolved and I have to do nothing further. I owe ebay nothing. I hold on to this and decide to cease responding to eBay’s weekly emails.

Yesterday, I get an email from ebay informing me that my account is suspended and that unless I pay the money, they may hand the debt over to a debt collection agency. I can’t bring myself to spend yet more time talking to eBay on the phone, but I don’t want the risk of increasing debt through collection agency fees. I don’t actually have £155 to give ebay.

At all times, I did my best to follow correct procedure. I reached out to the buyer on numerous occasions and tried to resolve things with him, but he never responded. I sold the bike in good faith- prior to selling it I was using it on a daily commute to work so it was in good (enough) working order. It was test driven before the purchase was completed. I have no way of identifying the buyer and no way of getting my bike back from him - if I could do this, then I’d have fewer qualms about paying back the money. 

Does anyone know if I have a leg to stand on if I let this work its way through to a legal process?

Keep_pedalling

And the moral of the story is never ever accept PP on collected items and stick strictly to cash.

If you continue to refuse to pay you may end up being taken to the small claims court where you may win or lose, but hopefully you will get some good advice from others who have been in the same situation.

km1500

You must pay the outstanding bill to avoid it going further.

Separate to this, raise a mcol against the buyer for the bike cost and yoir expenses
 

soolin

Keep_pedalling said:

And the moral of the story is never ever accept PP on ethics collected items and stick strictly to cash.

If you continue to refuse to pay you may end up being taken to the small claims court where you may win or lose, but hopefully you will get some good advice from others who have been in the same situation.

With managed payments seller has no idea how a buyer has paid, things have moved on now at least on eBay from the old ‘don’t take PayPal for a collected item’ advice.

ebay t and cs show that with the collection QR code a seller should be fully protected by eBay, and it seems that the CS reps agreed, it’s just the stupid eBay systems that don’t understand. The buyer will have claimed against eBay, that’s where the PayPal payment went, it won’t have shown a seller name at all. 

I would be looking at proper legal advice now as seller had full protection, and eBay needs to accept and understand their own T and Cs. 

RFW

dfogarty said:

Yesterday, I get an email from ebay informing me that my account is suspended and that unless I pay the money, they may hand the debt over to a debt collection agency. I can’t bring myself to spend yet more time talking to eBay on the phone, but I don’t want the risk of increasing debt through collection agency fees. I don’t actually have £155 to give ebay.

On this bit, no collection agency can increase a debt without taking you to court. In court you'd be able to put your case and would likely win.
Debt collectors can occasionally ask for more money but you have no obligation to pay it and there's nothing they can do without going to court.
The chances of this going to court are about as close to zero as you can get.

What I'd probably do at this stage is have one last crack at getting Ebay to sort it. Itemise a timeline and the details, clearly and succinctly, then contact them on Twitter with a Tweet along the lines of "buyer has duped me after collection, Ebay CS seem incapable of resolving even though they have repeatedly said they would, can anyone help?". Send your timeline email to that address and then, hopefully someone will wipe it. I would only deal with them in writing.

After that you could try one of the newspaper money help pages. They quite like stories like this and may just sort it quite quickly.

forgotmyname

Problem maybe your speaking to ebay when they have disputed the transaction with their bank and paypal not ebay.

soolin

forgotmyname said:

Problem maybe your speaking to ebay when they have disputed the transaction with their bank and paypal not ebay.

Seller can only talk to eBay though as they never received payment from PayPal, eBay did. Buyers don’t pay sellers direct now, they pay eBay and eBay pay the sellers.

if you use PayPal on eBay to buy you will see the change in payments, it used to show the seller’s details, it now shows only payment going to eBay. That’s why eBay t and cs say the seller is now protected. 

JetpackVelociraptor

I know I've posted about this here before, but it sounds to me like your buyer opened a payment dispute with their bank and not a request through eBay. You can find info on how to defend yourself from one of these here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/selling/getting-paid/handling-payment-disputes?id=4799

EBay's ts and cs require sellers to defend themselves if they wish to challenge a payment dispute, it is separate from Buyer and Seller Protection and requires a fast and thorough response. The QR code will not help you! Nor will statements from the buyer that they collected it themselves or were able to test ride it first, even if sent through eBay messages.

I would recommend that anybody who has a buyer collecting something that is worth over £100 get their buyer to sign a sheet stating the condition of the item on collection, as well as scanning the QR code. This was what was recommended to me for my business after a payment dispute. Also, only the buyer can sign for the item - nobody else.

I had a situation with a buyer shortly after they introduced managed payments. Buyer paid, sent a relative to collect, all agreed via eBay messages so they had a record of it, relative brought their QR code, buyer left feedback, everything seemed fine. Several weeks later we get a payment dispute opened, buyer claims they didn't recognise the payment, we supply eBay messages showing the buyer communicating with us about collection, paperwork signed by their relative who collected, QR code showing that they collected, and we lost the payment dispute because we didn't have a signature from the person on the eBay account. We resolved it by sending a letter before action to the buyer explaining they needed to either return the items or pay for the order. The buyer seemed confused that we'd even noticed the chargeback and seemed to think eBay would just refund them out of their pocket, but they paid us directly by bank transfer. We were charged a dispute fee by eBay because we were unable to successfully defend against it, but at least we didn't fully lose the payment for the goods.

OP, I would recommend that you report the buyer to action fraud to obtain a crime reference number, and then contact eBay again pointing out that the buyer has committed fraud and that eBay said you wouldn't be liable. If you don't get anywhere with that, send a letter to the buyer.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Keep_pedalling said:

If you continue to refuse to pay you may end up being taken to the small claims court where you may win or lose, but hopefully you will get some good advice from others who have been in the same situation.

Not someone I usually watch but Youtube recommended this particular video and although not the same issue  the guy is saying some firms don't have in house legal and it would cost thousands to attend a case:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSt326Qeh2U

There must be loads of accounts suspended over the years due to non-payment of fees, I've not heard of anyone going through small claims over this issue. 

Regarding the buyer filing through the bank for NAD, I think these are very difficult to defend, eBay says you can submit evidence but with something like the brake pads how do you prove that, or more importantly when you state you are a private seller and didn't claim the pads were original (I'm assuming) which means the pads aren't not as described does the bank account for that correctly?

OP in terms of what to do, it's probably pay eBay and claim the money back from buyer via small claims if you have their name and address. 

Do you still have photos of the bike, screenshots of the listing?  

RFW

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

There must be loads of accounts suspended over the years due to non-payment of fees, I've not heard of anyone going through small claims over this issue. 

I agree and say similar above. What has been happening more recently is that debt collectors have been known to take out court action (I've not heard of any relating to Ebay but it must be possible). They play the odds game that enough will pay up without going to court. When someone defends they tend not to send anyone to court. That's a lot of hearsay from me, thankfully I have no personal experience, but it is something I have seen/heard in a few places. I suspect that that has lessened since the financial crisis as fewer people have money to just pay up.

Vectis

I don't have a solution to this, however it's pointless people advising the op to pay up and reclaim via the small claims route as the seller has no details of the buyer

'I have no way of identifying the buyer and no way of getting my bike back from him'