Claiming for damage caused in England, but company HQ in Scotland.

13

Comments

  • Jetandy
    Jetandy Posts: 14 Newbie
    First Post
    Okell said:
    Jetandy said:
    Alderbank said:
    Read the contract you agreed to, it should state if its England & Wales or Scotland for the legal jurisdiction. 


    Blackcircles is an Edinburgh company.

    Their website says:

    About the Law relating to these Terms and Conditions
    We are situated in Scotland and the laws of Scotland shall govern any interpretation of these terms and conditions.  The Scottish courts shall have jurisdiction in any disputes between us in respect of these terms and conditions and the use of this website.
    Wonder if they will say that it's is the fitters responsibility, or have a disclaimer about damage?
    The fitters were local, ATS, but my contract is with Blackcircles.
    Why can't you sue the local fitters for negligence?  why are you resticted to suing under contrcat?

    If they didn't exercise reasonable care and skill when changing the wheel I'd have thought they were liable for the damage caused  -  but I'm not a lawyer...

    (Not everyhting always comes down to issues of contract law.  Sometimes it's tortious liability that needs to be )
    looked at)

    Was just wondering aboutvthat myself....
  • forgotmyname
    forgotmyname Posts: 32,545 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Puzzled why they need to remove the logo to refurbish, know some guys at a local wheel refurbishing company and they
    have never said anything about removing logo's.

    Where is the damage?

    Censorship Reigns Supreme in Troll City...

  • Jetandy
    Jetandy Posts: 14 Newbie
    First Post
    Jetandy said:
    Given the car is nearly 2 years old (less than, is the same). Wanting a new wheel is betterment & not a option under your rights.

    Take the offer of a repair. Odds on going to court will not get you a new wheel.
    For a car less than 3 years old it is reasonable to have any damage repaired with OEM products.  For example, you can request an OEM windscreen rather than a pattern part.
    2 years is not 'old'.
    And there was zero damage to the wheel beforehand. 

    Citation for this please? What law are you referring to?

    I didn't refer to any law. I'm saying it's reasonable to expect...and I have benefited from this reasonable attitude in the past. And it's about returning the wheel to a condition no worse than when they started work on it.

    Jetandy said:
    Read the contract you agreed to, it should state if its England & Wales or Scotland for the legal jurisdiction. 

    Jetandy said:
    If I followed the Scottish process could I be asked to attend court in Scotland? Wouldn't seem fair.
    Your choice to choose a Scottish company than a local one. It's why they say you acknowledge to agreeing to the terms by buying. 
    I didn't choose Scottish,  it was an online purchase and they sell and fit across the UK.
    Yes you did. I’m afraid you choose the company to buy from, and accept the jurisdiction they are based in. When purchasing you should do due diligence - but a lot of people fail to check the terms and conditions even though they agree to them either explicitly (by checking a box) or implicitly (by purchasing from them). 
    Fair enough.
  • Jetandy
    Jetandy Posts: 14 Newbie
    First Post
    Puzzled why they need to remove the logo to refurbish, know some guys at a local wheel refurbishing company and they
    have never said anything about removing logo's.

    Where is the damage?

    It's diamond cut so usually they are dipped, taken back to bear wheels, repaired and re painted. But I am making enquiries about if it can be done without stripping it back. 
  • ArbitraryRandom
    ArbitraryRandom Posts: 2,455 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Homepage Hero Name Dropper
    Okell said:
    Jetandy said:
    Alderbank said:
    Read the contract you agreed to, it should state if its England & Wales or Scotland for the legal jurisdiction. 


    Blackcircles is an Edinburgh company.

    Their website says:

    About the Law relating to these Terms and Conditions
    We are situated in Scotland and the laws of Scotland shall govern any interpretation of these terms and conditions.  The Scottish courts shall have jurisdiction in any disputes between us in respect of these terms and conditions and the use of this website.
    Wonder if they will say that it's is the fitters responsibility, or have a disclaimer about damage?
    The fitters were local, ATS, but my contract is with Blackcircles.
    Why can't you sue the local fitters for negligence?  why are you resticted to suing under contrcat?

    If they didn't exercise reasonable care and skill when changing the wheel I'd have thought they were liable for the damage caused  -  but I'm not a lawyer...

    (Not everyhting always comes down to issues of contract law.  Sometimes it's tortious liability that needs to be )
    looked at)

    Blackcircles arranged for (and presumably paid for) the fitting - so even without the contract in place, there's a good argument liability rests with them, and for them to have a case against the fitter down the line. 

    As there is a contract to fall back on, bringing a third party into the equation risks the OP taking the wrong party to court (thus wasting the unrecoverable fee) as even if the OP isn't relying on it, the fitter can point to it to shift liability. 
    I'm not an early bird or a night owl; I’m some form of permanently exhausted pigeon.
  • Okell
    Okell Posts: 781 Forumite
    First Post Name Dropper
    edited 20 January at 12:51AM
    Okell said:
    Jetandy said:
    Alderbank said:
    Read the contract you agreed to, it should state if its England & Wales or Scotland for the legal jurisdiction. 


    Blackcircles is an Edinburgh company.

    Their website says:

    About the Law relating to these Terms and Conditions
    We are situated in Scotland and the laws of Scotland shall govern any interpretation of these terms and conditions.  The Scottish courts shall have jurisdiction in any disputes between us in respect of these terms and conditions and the use of this website.
    Wonder if they will say that it's is the fitters responsibility, or have a disclaimer about damage?
    The fitters were local, ATS, but my contract is with Blackcircles.
    Why can't you sue the local fitters for negligence?  why are you resticted to suing under contrcat?

    If they didn't exercise reasonable care and skill when changing the wheel I'd have thought they were liable for the damage caused  -  but I'm not a lawyer...

    (Not everyhting always comes down to issues of contract law.  Sometimes it's tortious liability that needs to be )
    looked at)

    Blackcircles arranged for (and presumably paid for) the fitting - so even without the contract in place, there's a good argument liability rests with them, and for them to have a case against the fitter down the line. 

    As there is a contract to fall back on, bringing a third party into the equation risks the OP taking the wrong party to court (thus wasting the unrecoverable fee) as even if the OP isn't relying on it, the fitter can point to it to shift liability. 
    Yes.  But the OP seems to be reluctant to issue a contractual claim under Scottish law.  (But perhaps I've misunderstood what jurisdiction the contract with Black Circles falls within).

    Whilst the OP does have a contract with Black Circles, the actual damage was caused by the negligence of the local fitters.  Of course Black circles can be sued for breach of contract (or negligence) for the actions of their local agents, but it might be more straightforward to sue the people who caused the damage in the first place.

    Ignoring the question of jurisdiction for the moment, there is no complication about suing both Black Circles and their agent - so far as I know, but I'm not a lawyer.  The OP could name both as defendants and they can both defend it.

    Where somebody wants to claim against either a principal and/or their agent, I'd suggest it makes sense to join them together as co-defendants anyway.  Less likely to sue the wrong defendant...

    [Edit:  the main point I was trying to make is that the usual response on here, because this board is about consumer rights, is about contract law - whether that's about actual terms in a contract or terms imputed by legislation.  Sometimes though - especially where damage has been caused to somebody's property - the correct course of action might be in negligence and not necessarily breach of contract]
  • ArbitraryRandom
    ArbitraryRandom Posts: 2,455 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Homepage Hero Name Dropper
    Okell said:
    Okell said:
    Jetandy said:
    Alderbank said:
    Read the contract you agreed to, it should state if its England & Wales or Scotland for the legal jurisdiction. 


    Blackcircles is an Edinburgh company.

    Their website says:

    About the Law relating to these Terms and Conditions
    We are situated in Scotland and the laws of Scotland shall govern any interpretation of these terms and conditions.  The Scottish courts shall have jurisdiction in any disputes between us in respect of these terms and conditions and the use of this website.
    Wonder if they will say that it's is the fitters responsibility, or have a disclaimer about damage?
    The fitters were local, ATS, but my contract is with Blackcircles.
    Why can't you sue the local fitters for negligence?  why are you resticted to suing under contrcat?

    If they didn't exercise reasonable care and skill when changing the wheel I'd have thought they were liable for the damage caused  -  but I'm not a lawyer...

    (Not everyhting always comes down to issues of contract law.  Sometimes it's tortious liability that needs to be )
    looked at)

    Blackcircles arranged for (and presumably paid for) the fitting - so even without the contract in place, there's a good argument liability rests with them, and for them to have a case against the fitter down the line. 

    As there is a contract to fall back on, bringing a third party into the equation risks the OP taking the wrong party to court (thus wasting the unrecoverable fee) as even if the OP isn't relying on it, the fitter can point to it to shift liability. 
    Yes.  But the OP seems to be reluctant to issue a contractual claim under Scottish law.  (But perhaps I've misunderstood what jurisdiction the contract with Black Circles falls within).

    Whilst the OP does have a contract with Black Circles, the actual damage was caused by the negligence of the local fitters.  Of course Black circles can be sued for breach of contract (or negligence) for the actions of their local agents, but it might be more straightforward to sue the people who caused the damage in the first place.

    Ignoring the question of jurisdiction for the moment, there is no complication about suing both Black Circles and their agent - so far as I know, but I'm not a lawyer.  The OP could name both as defendants and they can both defend it.

    Where somebody wants to claim against either a principal and/or their agent, I'd suggest it makes sense to join them together as co-defendants anyway.  Less likely to sue the wrong defendant...

    [Edit:  the main point I was trying to make is that the usual response on here, because this board is about consumer rights, is about contract law - whether that's about actual terms in a contract or terms imputed by legislation.  Sometimes though - especially where damage has been caused to somebody's property - the correct course of action might be in negligence and not necessarily breach of contract]
    Which (AFAIK) put the jurisdiction back to Scotland... 
    I'm not an early bird or a night owl; I’m some form of permanently exhausted pigeon.
  • Jetandy
    Jetandy Posts: 14 Newbie
    First Post
    Some initial legal advice I've taken refers me to the N510 form for out of jurisdiction claims, as well as saying that I could claim against ATS, who's registered office is in Birmingham.  Food for thought.
  • ArbitraryRandom
    ArbitraryRandom Posts: 2,455 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Homepage Hero Name Dropper
    On what basis did they consider you didn't need permission (which box did they say you should tick)? Specifically with regard CPR 6.32(1)(a) and 6.32(1)(b)(iii) - you are party to an agreement conferring jurisdiction to Scotland. 

    And we said you can claim against the fitters... but there is a risk if you only claim against the fitters (they can push liability to black circle by pointing at the contract) and if you claim against both together then the jurisdiction question comes back into play. 


    But I'll say again - you want to try and build your evidence/present it to the company and give them chance to respond before you decide if you want to take court action or not... at the moment as far as you've shared on the thread, you don't have any contract, statute, caselaw or independent authority to support your claim. 
    I'm not an early bird or a night owl; I’m some form of permanently exhausted pigeon.
  • sheramber
    sheramber Posts: 19,006 Forumite
    First Anniversary I've been Money Tipped! First Post Name Dropper
    Jetandy said:
    Some initial legal advice I've taken refers me to the N510 form for out of jurisdiction claims, as well as saying that I could claim against ATS, who's registered office is in Birmingham.  Food for thought.
    And forn N1D 

    Disputing the claim         
                                                                                                                                                     
      If you are being sued as an individual for a specified amount of money and you dispute the claim, the claim may be transferred to a local court i.e. the one nearest to or where you live or carry on business if different from the court where the claim was issued.


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