Moved from NHS to Civil Service 2018 - CS Pension eligible for McCloud Remedy?

AdamS_CivilServant

I'd be very grateful for advice, for example from some CS Pension forum experts such as hyubh or hugheskevi. I've searched the CS FAQs, and this forum, and cannot see a direct answer to this question...

I worked in the NHS from 2009 to 2018, and was a member of the NHS 2008 Pension scheme (from 2009 to 2015), and then the NHS 2015 Pension scheme (from 2015 to 2018). I then moved to the civil service in May 2018, and so started on the civil service alpha pension, from 2018 to present. 

I understand that my NHS pension payments from 2015 to 2018 will be eligible for the McCloud remedy. But will be civil service pension payments from 2018 to 2022 also be eligible for McCloud remedy? I found this text under the CS Pension McCloud FAQ:

"I have only ever been a member of alpha, how will I be affected?

New entrants to the Civil Service who were enrolled into alpha when they joined are not affected by the Court’s ruling. If you had previous public sector pension scheme service prior to joining the Civil Service Pension Scheme, you could also be in scope for 2015 Remedy (McCloud) if your service across both schemes spanned 31 March 2012."

This makes it sound like my 2018 to 2022 payment could be eligible for the McCloud remedy. Does anyone know if this is correct, and if there is more detail anywhere? If so, which legacy pension scheme would these 2018 to 2022 payments fall under? Or who would be an appropriate contact, to ask this question, please?

Back in 2018, I did not transfer my NHS Pension scheme into my civil service pension scheme ('club transfer'). Does this make a difference to the above? I did actually attempt to do this - sent my forms in - called them up several times to check - but my forms were lost, and then I ran out of time. I really really hope that this isn't an error which ends up costing me lots of money! I was previously reassured that there isn't much difference in whether to 'club transfer' or not, and so I didn't chase too hard, but I wonder now whether the McCloud remedy may change this.

Thanks all for any thoughts or advice! This forum is such a valuable resource.

hugheskevi

adamshlong said:

I worked in the NHS from 2009 to 2018, and was a member of the NHS 2008 Pension scheme (from 2009 to 2015), and then the NHS 2015 Pension scheme (from 2015 to 2018). I then moved to the civil service in May 2018, and so started on the civil service alpha pension, from 2018 to present. 

I understand that my NHS pension payments from 2015 to 2018 will be eligible for the McCloud remedy. But will be civil service pension payments from 2018 to 2022 also be eligible for McCloud remedy?

...

This makes it sound like my 2018 to 2022 payment could be eligible for the McCloud remedy. Does anyone know if this is correct, and if there is more detail anywhere? If so, which legacy pension scheme would these 2018 to 2022 payments fall under?

I'll preface this by saying transfers are an area I am not 100% familiar with. So some of the things I say could be a little different (probably not 100% wrong, but perhaps not quite right in all areas).

You are in-scope of the McCloud judgment ("2015 Remedy") for both your NHS service between 2015-18 and your Civil Service service between 2018-2022. 

For your NHS pension, the position is easy - you already have your unprotected option, later this year you will be informed about your alternative option of remaining in the 2008 scheme, and you make that choice when you commence the pension. 

For your Civil Service pension, you have your unprotected option of alpha. Also note that under this option you already made your choice not to take a Fair Deal transfer of your NHS benefits. Hence I do not expect you to have any choice about that as part of the Remedy, ie, were you to choose alpha benefits for the 2018-22 when you commence your pension.

What I would expect is that for your alternative protected option, you will be treated as though you qualified to be a protected member of both the NHS and Civil Service when you changed employment. That would have meant you did not go into alpha, but instead into a pre-2015 Civil Service Scheme. Given the Civil Service scheme most similar to the NHS 2008 scheme is Premium, I think you would have been put into that scheme (but could be wrong on that, perhaps you might have gone into the final salary section of nuvos instead). In that scenario, you would have had the option to have a Fair Deal transfer into Premium (or maybe the final salary section of nuvos), which of course you have never been offered as it didn't happen. I therefore think (but am not certain) that you will at some point have an option to make a Fair Deal transfer on that basis if you decide not to take alpha benefits for the period 2018-22 - presumably when you take your pensions and make your Remedy decisions. However, it could also be argued that in either scenario the transfer across would have been the same (or actuarially equivalent, at least) and only future service is different so perhaps you wouldn't be given a choice to revisit the transfer under either of your options.

Note that if you were to take your NHS pension before your Civil Service pension, I suspect it could cause a lot of complications in regards to your options under the Civil Service scheme around revisiting your transfer decision if that is an option, so it is important to be clear about your options and sequencing before starting pensions, even if that will be a long time into the future.

Back in 2018, I did not transfer my NHS Pension scheme into my civil service pension scheme ('club transfer'). Does this make a difference to the above? I did actually attempt to do this - sent my forms in - called them up several times to check - but my forms were lost, and then I ran out of time. I really really hope that this isn't an error which ends up costing me lots of money! I was previously reassured that there isn't much difference in whether to 'club transfer' or not, and so I didn't chase too hard, but I wonder now whether the McCloud remedy may change this.

The decision not to transfer doesn't really affect 2015 Remedy as such, but it does mean MyCSP has no way to know that you are in-scope of remedy, and you are probably considered to be an out-of-scope alpha-only member as far as the Civil Service scheme is concerned.

You should contact MyCSP (in writing/email, not by phone, keep records) to ask what you need to do/provide to alert them about your prior NHS service and your 2015 Remedy eligibility. You should do this as soon as possible.

It is quite a stretch to say that taking a Club transfer or not 'isn't much difference' and certainly something I would not venture an opinion on given the outcome is dependant on your future salary progression which nobody can be sure of (except perhaps unless you were an NHS Practitioner, but that seems unlikely if you moved to the Civil Service). 

If you applied within the 12-month window for a transfer and there were delays not of your making, the window for the transfer would almost certainly have been extended had you chased harder. But so long has passed now that that ship has probably sailed, at least if you choose alpha benefits for the 2018-22 period when you commence the pension.

Or who would be an appropriate contact, to ask this question, please?

You really need chapter and verse from MyCSP on this, as the NHS position is clear, all the complexity is on the Civil Service side of things.

The first and most important thing is to establish your eligibility for Remedy with MyCSP, and once that is done MyCSP will be in a position to outline how you are affected. In practice the second step is likely to have to wait until you receive your 2024 Annual Benefit statement this summer, which should show both your options. This might be sufficient to answer all your questions, or if not, that is probably the time to engage with MyCSP for further clarification of your position and options - especially around any future option around your 2018 transfer decision and what it may be contingent upon.

Emmia

I think you'd get McCloud for the NHS (if it applies), but not for your CS scheme.

They're totally separate, since you didn't manage the club transfer.

amanda1024

hugheskevi said:

That would have meant you did not go into alpha, but instead into a pre-2015 Civil Service Scheme. Given the Civil Service scheme most similar to the NHS 2008 scheme is Premium, I think you would have been put into that scheme (but could be wrong on that, perhaps you might have gone into the final salary section of nuvos instead). In that scenario, you would have had the option to have a Fair Deal transfer into Premium (or maybe the final salary section of nuvos), which of course you have never been offered as it didn't happen. I therefore think (but am not certain) that you will at some point have an option to make a Fair Deal transfer on that basis if you decide not to take alpha benefits for the period 2018-22 - presumably when you take your pensions and make your Remedy decisions. However, it could also be argued that in either scenario the transfer across would have been the same (or actuarially equivalent, at least) and only future service is different so perhaps you wouldn't be given a choice to revisit the transfer under either of your options. 

I thought Premium closed to new civil servants in 2007 - or was there an exception for public sector transfers?

Silvertabby

Agree with Emmia.  McCloud can't apply to your CS pension as there is no final salary element to 'uplift'.

As for the transfer, as it started within your 12 months with the CSP, and as long as the delay wasn't your fault (ie, didn't bother to return the paperwork in time) then it could have gone ahead.  But not now.

hugheskevi

Emmia said:

I think you'd get McCloud for the NHS (if it applies), but not for your CS scheme.

They're totally separate, since you didn't manage the club transfer.

The pension arrangements are completely separate schemes, but the rules around eligibility for transitional protection - which is where the McCloud judgment found there to be age discrimination - are based around membership of any public service pension scheme on the applicable dates, ie, 31 March 2012 with service after 1 April 2015.

In this particular case, the member is 'young' (ie, unprotected). To remedy the age discrimination around protection identified in the McCloud judgment, consideration of how they would have been treated if they had been 'old' (ie protected) has to be made. If a member aged, say, 56 years of age on 31 March 2012 and in the NHS scheme prior to 31 March 2012 had changed employment from the NHS to the Civil Service after April 2015, they would have been a protected member under both schemes and would not have been put into alpha upon joining the Civil Service. This would have been the case regardless of whether they took a Club Transfer or not.

amanda1024 said:

I thought Premium closed to new civil servants in 2007 - or was there an exception for public sector transfers?

Premium was closed to new members from 2007, nuvos closed to new members from 2015. Transfers of past service and protected members' future service can go into pre-2015 schemes however.

Silvertabby said:

McCloud can't apply to your CS pension as there is no final salary element to 'uplift'.

It is not necessary for there to be a final salary element to be in scope of Remedy. Many Civil Servants within scope of 2015 Remedy will be members of the career average Nuvos scheme. They are still eligible for Remedy, ie, will be offered a choice of nuvos or alpha membership for 2015-22, although in almost all cases their Nuvos benefits will be better than alpha (ill-health, death-in-service, and those reaching State Pension age very early in the Remedy window being the exceptions).

Silvertabby

Let's just say that I'm so glad I'm retired !  I do feel sorry for my ex colleagues (and those working for other public sector schemes) who will be sorting this out.... while dealing with floods of phone calls from pensioners asking if they have re-calculated their records yet (and if not, why not).

AdamS_CivilServant

That's fantastic - thank you hugheskevi for the advice, which makes sense to me. As you say, as per the McCloud judgement, 'younger' employees like me should have been allowed to keep 2008 NHS Pension from 2015 to 2018. Then, when I moved to the Civil Service in 2018, I would have been offered a legacy CS Pension scheme (maybe Premium, or final salary Nuvos). So my first job, now, is to email CSP to get this confirmed. I anticipate this may not be an easy process (as you say, CSP will not yet have a record of my NHS Pension), and I may well come back to this forum if I have problems.

A follow-on question, as hugheskevi describes, is whether I can revisit that my NHS Pension was not 'transferred-in' to my CS Pension.  Since, if I was moving from 2008 NHS pension to legacy CS Pension, maybe I would have made a different decision on whether to transfer in (i.e. maybe I would have sought proper advice, checked to see that my forms were received, and then chased it harder!). But I shall deal with this later - i.e. after I've confirmed that my CSP is within remit of McCloud remedy. 

hugheskevi said:
It is quite a stretch to say that taking a Club transfer or not 'isn't much difference' and certainly something I would not venture an opinion on given the outcome is dependant on your future salary progression which nobody can be sure of (except perhaps unless you were an NHS Practitioner, but that seems unlikely if you moved to the Civil Service). 

I was an NHS Practitioner (there are some of us in the CS - e.g. in DHSC). I should have thought about this in more detail back in 2018. Some fellow doctors working at the CS told me (over coffee, informally etc) that it's probably slightly easier to do a Club Transfer, since it means all of one's pension is in the same place, but they said that it doesn't make a difference to how much pension one actually receives (I now think this may have been incorrect advice, since there are different ways of adjusting for inflation etc). And so I sent in my forms requesting a Club Transfer, but didn't chase it up, and can now see (some years later) that this was never actioned. I'm disappointed in myself for not taking this more seriously - trying to think more carefully about pensions and other issues these days!

Emmia

adamshlong said:

That's fantastic - thank you hugheskevi for the advice, which makes sense to me. As you say, as per the McCloud judgement, 'younger' employees like me should have been allowed to keep NHS Pension from 2015 to 2018. Then, when I moved to the Civil Service in 2018, I would have been offered a legacy CS Pension scheme (maybe Premium, or final salary Nuvos). So my first job, now, is to email CSP to get this confirmed. I anticipate this may not be an easy process (as you say, CSP will not yet have a record of my NHS Pension), and I may well come back to this forum if I have problems.

A follow-on question, as hugheskevi describes, is whether I can revisit that my NHS Pension was not 'transferred-in' to my CS Pension.  Since, if I was moving from 2008 NHS pension to legacy CS Pension, maybe I would have made a different decision on whether to transfer in (i.e. maybe I would have sought proper advice, checked to see that my forms were received, and then chased it harder!). But I shall deal with this later - i.e. after I've confirmed that my CSP is within remit of McCloud remedy. 

hugheskevi said:
It is quite a stretch to say that taking a Club transfer or not 'isn't much difference' and certainly something I would not venture an opinion on given the outcome is dependant on your future salary progression which nobody can be sure of (except perhaps unless you were an NHS Practitioner, but that seems unlikely if you moved to the Civil Service). 

I was an NHS Practitioner (there are some of us in the CS - e.g. in DHSC). I should have thought about this in more detail back in 2018. Some fellow doctors working at the CS told me (over coffee, informally etc) that it's probably slightly easier to do a Club Transfer, since it means all of one's pension is in the same place, but they said that it doesn't make a difference to how much pension one actually receives (I now think this may have been incorrect advice, since there are different ways of adjusting for inflation etc). And so I sent in my forms requesting a Club Transfer, but didn't chase it up, and can now see (some years later) that this was never actioned. I'm disappointed in myself for not taking this more seriously - trying to think more carefully about pensions and other issues these days!

The Premium pension scheme closed in 2007 (in August if I remember correctly).

I joined the CS in June 2007 and I'm therefore one of the last to join that scheme, I also transferred in pension at that point which it was quite clear had to be done within 12 months of joining, this transferred pension also falls under Premium. 

I got a letter when I transferred my pension in confirming that the transfer had gone ahead, and telling me how much pension that had 'bought' within a couple of months of joining the CS.

There were transitional arrangements for those within a few years of retirement in 2015 who stayed on Premium / Nuvos but otherwise everyone moved to Alpha.

If I've read your question/points correctly you didn't become a CS until 2018 so joined Alpha at the outset of your CS career. You also didn't do a club transfer/or the transfer wasn't processed in time. I therefore can't see how McCloud can possibly affect your CS pension, but it may have a bearing on your separate NHS pension. In terms of the transfer, that ship has probably sailed, as you missed the time window and didn't chase it up.

AdamS_CivilServant

Thanks Emmia. That's very useful to understand your experience - thank you.

Emmia said:

There were transitional arrangements for those within a few years of retirement in 2015 who stayed on Premium / Nuvos but otherwise everyone moved to Alpha.

If I've read your question/points correctly you didn't become a CS until 2018 so joined Alpha at the outset of your CS career. You also didn't do a club transfer/or the transfer wasn't processed in time. I therefore can't see how McCloud can possibly affect your CS pension, but it may have a bearing on your separate NHS pension. In terms of the transfer, that ship has probably sailed, as you missed the time window and didn't chase it up.

I think this is the point of the McCloud Remedy. As you say, there were transitional arrangement for 'older members' in 2015. But there SHOULD HAVE been similar rights given to all (to avoid age discrimination).

The process at the time is described nicely in this document (dated 2017, i.e. before McCloud), especially under Annex 5 : https://www.civilservicepensionscheme.org.uk/media/2woihmiu/club-memorandum-march-2017.pdf 
- A5.25 to A5.28 says that those with full protection (i.e. older members) can move between public sector schemes, and will be allowed to move onto schemes as if they had moved on 1 April 2012. I.e. they could go from NHS 2008 pension to Civil Service nuvos. This is regardless of whether they do club transfer. 
- A5.31 specifies that if a protected member is moving to Civil Service, they would go onto nuvos (I think this answers hugheskevi's query, above). 

When I left the NHS in 2018, I SHOULD HAVE (as per McCloud) been on the 2008 NHS Pension scheme rather than the 2015 NHS Pension scheme. And so, when I moved to the Civil Service in 2018, I should have been offered the same rights as a 'full protected' (older) member, and been able to move into Nuvos (up until everyone moved into alpha in 2022). 

The trickier, and slightly separate question, is whether I can retrospectively do a Club Transfer. I would argue that I should be allowed to, since the benefits of Club Transfer are clear if moving from 2008 NHS Pension to nuvos Civil Service pension (whereas at the time I thought I was moving from 2015 NHS Pension into alpha, both of which are career average pensions, and so benefits of Club Transfer less definite). 

I have emailed Civil Service Pensions, and am awaiting a reply...

dothenumbersaddup

I’ve just noticed an extra entry being added to the CSP remedy site - may help?  Looks like they are introducing a form to use to advise if you have been in an earlier scheme.