Power of Attorney via social services

29december1952

Can anyone clarify for me please?  My 92 year old father has been a month in a private care home which seems to have been organised for him by someone who calls twice a week to his house to clean and help.  This person phoned me to advise that she would help me negotiate the procedure with social services so that she could look after my father in the future, she rang three days running pressuring me to engage with her, though she's down as a neighbour only but 'next of kin' at the care home.  She had his wallet and was paying for incidentals and organised a locksmith to change the locks on my fathers house.  She told me to attend a meeting at the care home to discuss my fathers future care with the social worker.  I then got a call from the area manager of Enhanced Health in Care Homes and the social worker.  I turned up for the meeting but was not then allowed to attend as my father said he did not want me there.  The Social worker said the cleaner/help was 100% honest, worked for the local council and genuine and had known my father as a friend for many many years!  No one has heard of her before.  I would think there was a conflict of interest, is she acting in a professional Council capacity or as a 'friend' looking for caring work?  The social worker and nurse said they were going to my father's house to assess what his income might be and I was not allowed the key.  Apparently the wallet is now back with my father and not the helper and the key is with social services.  The Social Worker then said they were going to the Court of Protection to apply for power of attorney.  I was originally told by the care home my father did not have 'capacity' but when I got there, they are saying he does have 'capacity'  I am obviously going to take this further as they seem to me to be bulldozing and I'm not sure if what they are doing is legal.  Hope I've been clear, thank you

Brie

Bulldozing is what they do.  It's to keep time wasters away, scare relatives into submission and ensure that the local authority gets as much ££ out of an individual as possible before having to be financially responsible for them. 

Of course that's just my personal opinion.  I'm sure there must be some nice people working for the councils.....

I'm assuming there is no sort of POA in place already and that your dad hasn't given you any kind of authority for any of his financial dealings including his bank(s).  Is there anyone that knows you dad for some time, a GP or various neighbours or anyone else that might support you in this situation?  

I suggest you put all of your concerns down in point form outlining the sequence of events and give the social workers a copy, cc'ing your father's local political types. (MP, local elected officials)   

Ensure you include in your essay above that someone has managed to take hold of his assets (bank card and savings?) as well as making it impossible for your dad to return home because he no longer has a key to his own house.  

Officially it will be deemed that your dad has capacity until someone decides that he doesn't.  This is usually done by a medical official and that would get validated by the CoP.  As such there is nothing that you can sign on your dad's behalf as you are not in charge of him.  If you already had a POA in place then you would be in charge.  

Our local authority insisted that MiL had capacity to decide that she wanted to return home after a prolonged stay in the hospital.  The hospital staff disputed this stating how often MiL had talked about how her father had visited her the day before and that he lived in that building across the road.  Impossible as MiL was 96 and obviously her parent had been dead for half a century.  The LA placed a lot on the fact that MiL wanted to return home and we had to point out she didn't know where she lived.  MiL was eventually moved to a care home instead as there was no way we could look after her given her various conditions at that point but it did take a lot of arguing.  And LA was looking into going to the CoP but this never really progressed very far before she died. 

29december1952

Thanks Brie, and sorry for the 'essay' lol!  This is all new  to me so thanks for the heads up so now I know how they operate.  Sorry you've had to go through this as well.  I'll take your experience to help me going forward.  At first I thought this cleaner/carer was a scammer.  Her 'husband' was my father's taxi driver for years and the pair of them rang me with a load of guff of how they were his best mates.  Take care

29december1952

No Brie I don't have POA which is what they kept asking me, but would have looked into this had I known I needed to and now insisting they have the authority to get this over me.  I don't know where I would stand should he pass away in this home regarding whether I pay the outstanding fees out of my own pocket or they get it fron their POA months down the line.  He is very frail, had a minor stroke, sometimes won't talk and thinks he's 20 years younger than he is, and sometimes talks in riddles so I would say he's got Dementia - where sometimes they are lucid and sometimes not.  They say they have not conducted an Alzheimer/dementia test which would confirm his mental capacity.  I just feel there is something off with the helper and the taxi driver who say they have known him many many years but know nothing about him.

Flugelhorn

I agree about the bulldozing - I was told by someone that the council that they believed my mother would  self funding - she had no capacity and they clearly  had gone through her paperwork (which she had not allowed me to do - the LPA which was signed a couple of years previously was only just being registered) - they created a long list of "wants" re care without ever discussing the costs 

Linton

29december1952 said:

Can anyone clarify for me please?  My 92 year old father has been a month in a private care home which seems to have been organised for him by someone who calls twice a week to his house to clean and help.  This person phoned me to advise that she would help me negotiate the procedure with social services so that she could look after my father in the future, she rang three days running pressuring me to engage with her, though she's down as a neighbour only but 'next of kin' at the care home.  She had his wallet and was paying for incidentals and organised a locksmith to change the locks on my fathers house.  She told me to attend a meeting at the care home to discuss my fathers future care with the social worker.  I then got a call from the area manager of Enhanced Healthg in Care Homes and the social worker.  I turned up for the meeting but was not then allowed to attend as my father said he did not want me there.  The Social worker said the cleaner/help was 100% honest, worked for the local council and genuine and had known my father as a friend for many many years!  No one has heard of her before.  The social worker and nurse said they were going to my father's house to assess what his income might be and I was not allowed the key.  Apparently the wallet is now back with my father and not the helper and the key is with social services.  The Social Worker then said they were going to the Court of Protection to apply for power of attorney.  I was originally told by the care home my father did not have 'capacity' which was why I wanted to go to the meeting to sign any papers etc, but when I got there, they are saying he does have 'capacity'  I am obviously going to take this further as they seem to me to be bulldozing and I'm not sure oif what they are doing is legal.  Hope I've been clear, thank you

If you did not have PoA you had no right to sign anything on your father's behalf. "Next of kin" has no legal meaning or authority.  In practice it means the person to whom the authorities can speak if they cannot discuss matters with the individual concerned directly.

The Court of Protection guidance on capacity (if I remember correctly, perhaps it's the Mental Health Act)) says that it should be assumed that someone has capacity unless there is good evidence that they do not have capacity to make the specific decision required.  "Lack of capacity" is not an all-encompassing state applicable to every situation, and where possible the person's wishes should be followed or taken into account.    Your father's statement that he did not want you present would not appear to require having a great deal of capacity, being simply a statement of his feelings.

So it seems to me based on the information given that everything being done is reasonable given your father, for whatever reason, did not appear to have any family members around to help him.

Marcon

29december1952 said:

No Brie I don't have POA which is what they kept asking me and now insisting they have the authority to get this over me.  I live hundreds of miles away from him so don't know a lot of info, he's been, shall we say, not the best of parents so not close.  I don't know where I would stand should he pass away in this home, he is very frail, had a minor stroke, sometimes wont talk and thinks he's 20 years younger than he is. 

'Where you would stand' in what sense, exactly? It's a bit hard to answer without being sure where you're coming from, so please could you clarify?

Also - what outcome are you hoping for? You say you are't close, either geographically or personally, so would you actually want POA?

29december1952 said:

The Social worker said the cleaner/help was 100% honest, worked for the local council and genuine and had known my father as a friend for many many years!  No one has heard of her before.  

Clearly the social worker has heard of her...

Brie

The council will, via the CoP, have authority above you to determine what should happen with your dad.  That should consult with family and others in his life to get an idea of what is appropriate.  I mean, if you knew your dad was vegan and they insisted on him eating meat and eggs then they should take your word on it.  

But if they gain official authority then it will be them dealing with his bank account, possibly putting his house up for sale etc.  One would hope that they would allow you a say in disposal of any possessions but sometimes that doesn't happen.  One hears stories of a housing clearance firm being called in to dispose of everything including family photos etc.  Which is why you need to ensure that your feelings, wishes, concerns are noted.  

Do you know if he has a will and if so what it says?  If he doesn't then any thing remaining when he finally dies should go to his family - so spouse, if any remaining, then children etc.  Friends or carers wouldn't get a look in unless there's a specific bequest somewhere.

If you haven't been close then you might find it a welcome relief not to get too involved with the details of his situation perhaps?

Albermarle

29december1952 said:

No Brie I don't have POA which is what they kept asking me and now insisting they have the authority to get this over me.  I live hundreds of miles away from him so don't know a lot of info, he's been, shall we say, not the best of parents so not close.  I don't know where I would stand should he pass away in this home, he is very frail, had a minor stroke, sometimes wont talk and thinks he's 20 years younger than he is. 

The social services have legal responsibilities to look after vulnerable people. In practice on a day to day basis a lot of this is often delegated to family members, but if there are none involved in the vulnerable persons life, then the social services have to act in the vulnerable persons best interests.

29december1952

Hi  Flugelhorn what an eye opener I am getting about how they operate.

29december1952

Hi Linton, I haven't actually signed anything, it was an assumption, I only assumed they wanted me there to disuss his future needs and POA as the helper was suggesting.  As said I do not know the procedure.  Do not agree they are being reasonable and will be taking this further.

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