self assessment state pension statement

mksysb

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

[Deleted User]

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

mksysb

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

That seems to back up my point.  The amount accrued is the weekly rate times 52.  This may be different to the amount paid which adjusts the first and last payment i the tax year.  So you don't adjust for the payments and just use the weekly rate times 52.

Dazed_and_C0nfused

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

This explains situations where HMRC will and won't use 52 weeks in your tax code.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/paye-manual/paye76030

[Deleted User]

mksysb said:

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

That seems to back up my point.  The amount accrued is the weekly rate times 52.  This may be different to the amount paid which adjusts the first and last payment i the tax year.  So you don't adjust for the payments and just use the weekly rate times 52.

You originally stated:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13

mksysb

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

That seems to back up my point.  The amount accrued is the weekly rate times 52.  This may be different to the amount paid which adjusts the first and last payment i the tax year.  So you don't adjust for the payments and just use the weekly rate times 52.

You originally stated:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

That seems to back up my point.  The amount accrued is the weekly rate times 52.  This may be different to the amount paid which adjusts the first and last payment i the tax year.  So you don't adjust for the payments and just use the weekly rate times 52.

You originally stated:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13

Wow, what a pedant!  I was explaining to the OP. how to work out what he needs to put in his return.  ie look at his monthly bank statement and multiply the figure by 13.  I know that in one month of the year there will be two payments, but didn't think it necessary to go into such detail.

[Deleted User]

mksysb said:

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

That seems to back up my point.  The amount accrued is the weekly rate times 52.  This may be different to the amount paid which adjusts the first and last payment i the tax year.  So you don't adjust for the payments and just use the weekly rate times 52.

You originally stated:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

[Deleted User] said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

I’m not sure that the public guidance ever ‘trumps’ the HMRC internal manuals from which one finds:

‘Subject to the following 2 exemptions, the taxable amount is the amount of pension accruing in the tax year. This may be different from the amount actually paid in a tax year.’ 

That seems to back up my point.  The amount accrued is the weekly rate times 52.  This may be different to the amount paid which adjusts the first and last payment i the tax year.  So you don't adjust for the payments and just use the weekly rate times 52.

You originally stated:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13

Wow, what a pedant!  I was explaining to the OP. how to work out what he needs to put in his return.  ie look at his monthly bank statement and multiply the figure by 13.  I know that in one month of the year there will be two payments, but didn't think it necessary to go into such detail.

Not pedantic at all. You are simply incorrect! 

Having said that, this has been an issue even when I worked for HMRC - and that wasn’t yesterday! I haven’t thought it through but I’m not sure why the annual rate of pension can’t be paid monthly. 

Molerat summed up the correct approach earlier in the thread. 

sheramber

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

Yes but it does not say the 52 payments will all be the same amount

e.g. My payment for April 24 was £36 less than the May payment as the pension increase only applied to two weeks  of April. 

13 x April payment would be wrong for my annual amount

13 X May  would be wrong for my annual amount. 

mksysb

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

mybestattempt said:

mksysb said:

sheramber said:

mksysb said:

Assuming you are paid monthly, just take one of the monthly payments during the year and multiply by 13.

That doesn't take into account that the April payment may include  a change of rate part way through the payment period.

Tax is charged on what you are due to receive, not what actually receive.

Do you have an authoritative source to back this up?

 

These extracts from the HMRC guidance may help you understand:


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75700


https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim75020

I understand perfectly well, and I believe this trumps yours.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension/how-your-tax-is-paid

"After your first year of getting the State Pension, you’ll pay tax based on 52 weeks of payments each year."

This is exactly what is happening in my case.

Yes but it does not say the 52 payments will all be the same amount

e.g. My payment for April 24 was £36 less than the May payment as the pension increase only applied to two weeks  of April. 

13 x April payment would be wrong for my annual amount

13 X May  would be wrong for my annual amount. 

Let me try and explain it again, as you clearly aren't getting it.  The tax on state pensions is based on the accrual basis.  This means it is based on what you are entitled to get in the tax year, not your actual payments.  Obviously if your pension changes, the payments in April will be different.  With the accrual basis you take what your weekly pension is, as advised by the DWP at the beginning of the new tax year and multiply it by 52. That is the amount you will be taxed on.  

I was just trying to put it in layman's terms for the OP when he asked how much pension he should put in his SA, when I suggested that if he was paid monthly as opposed to weekly he should multiply the sum he received by 13.  I didn't realise that that would upset some people, as I should have said 28 day payment, but that was implied as I said to multiply by 13, and not 12.  Obviously, you would not multiply the edge cases by 13, but just the normal  amount received throughout the year.  How you could misinterpret what the HMRC guide said I have no idea.  They seemed to have explained it simply as possible.

Strangely though one of the HMRC documents says:-

"Pensioners are often content to pay Income Tax on the amount received in a year, as in most years the amounts accruing and received are similar. However, it is possible in certain circumstances for the amounts to be different. If a taxpayer requests the statutory basis this should be accepted."

So it seems if you want to do it your way, just tell the HMRC people and they will accept it.

unholyangel

Is this argument still going on? 

The SA100 guidance notes for the 2023-2024 year, made available by HMRC to help you complete your tax return, give instructions of:

Box 8 State Pension

Use the letter ‘About the general increase in benefits’ that the Pension Service sent you to find your weekly State Pension amount.

Add up the amount you were entitled to receive from 6 April 2023 to 5 April 2024 and put the total in box 8. For tax purposes, the correct amount is always the figure of weekly entitlement not the number of payments you received, so this will be the first week at the old weekly pension rate, plus 51 weeks at the new weekly pension rate.