Forcing prepayment meters to restart

QrizB

tifo said:

Ofcom has said it will allow the energy companies to add £16 a year to bills to pay for the combined debt owed. So the energy will be repaid through everyone else and still fit prepayment meters to take debt from the bill payer. Windfall.

The £16 is for unrecoverable bad debt, not all debt. It assumes that debt recovery efforts continue as planned.

There is no windfall.

wild666

MultiFuelBurner said:

Well for certain it will be a game of who's first to force a pre payment meter and grab the backlash of the media 😂

Stalemate. My money is on EDF cracking first

EDF certainly like to make the first move so I would put my money on it being them who jump first.

MWT

tifo said:

Ofcom has said it will allow the energy companies to add £16 a year to bills to pay for the combined debt owed. So the energy will be repaid through everyone else and still fit prepayment meters to take debt from the bill payer. Windfall.

There is no 'Windfall', they are not going to be both recovering debt from those who owe it, and getting the same debt paid from elsewhere.

Allowing forced switches to pre-payment to resume is aimed at stopping, or at least slowing the debt levels building up in the future.

 

mongoose2009

i would say they could force a new meter on a safety grounds

if the meter is old they are allowed to inspect its safety and stick anew one in 

on "safety ground"

MeteredOut

QrizB said:

tifo said:

Ofcom has said it will allow the energy companies to add £16 a year to bills to pay for the combined debt owed. So the energy will be repaid through everyone else and still fit prepayment meters to take debt from the bill payer. Windfall.

The £16 is for unrecoverable bad debt, not all debt. It assumes that debt recovery efforts continue as planned.

There is no windfall.

So the suppliers will not (be able to) sell on these unrecoverable debts?

QrizB

MeteredOut said:

QrizB said:

tifo said:

Ofcom has said it will allow the energy companies to add £16 a year to bills to pay for the combined debt owed. So the energy will be repaid through everyone else and still fit prepayment meters to take debt from the bill payer. Windfall.

The £16 is for unrecoverable bad debt, not all debt. It assumes that debt recovery efforts continue as planned.

There is no windfall.

So the suppliers will not (be able to) sell on these unrecoverable debts?

All the details are here:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/energy-price-cap-additional-debt-costs-review-consultation

Qyburn

MeteredOut said:

QrizB said:

tifo said:

Ofcom has said it will allow the energy companies to add £16 a year to bills to pay for the combined debt owed. So the energy will be repaid through everyone else and still fit prepayment meters to take debt from the bill payer. Windfall.

The £16 is for unrecoverable bad debt, not all debt. It assumes that debt recovery efforts continue as planned.

There is no windfall.

So the suppliers will not (be able to) sell on these unrecoverable debts?

Who would buy an truly unrecoverable debt?  I don't know if you're implying that the supplier isn't out of pocket if they can sell their debt on, but if so you may not be aware that debt purchasers only pay a few percent of the nominal value. 

MeteredOut

Qyburn said:

MeteredOut said:

QrizB said:

tifo said:

Ofcom has said it will allow the energy companies to add £16 a year to bills to pay for the combined debt owed. So the energy will be repaid through everyone else and still fit prepayment meters to take debt from the bill payer. Windfall.

The £16 is for unrecoverable bad debt, not all debt. It assumes that debt recovery efforts continue as planned.

There is no windfall.

So the suppliers will not (be able to) sell on these unrecoverable debts?

Who would buy an truly unrecoverable debt?  I don't know if you're implying that the supplier isn't out of pocket if they can sell their debt on, but if so you may not be aware that debt purchasers only pay a few percent of the nominal value. 

Just because a supplier says something is unrecoverable, does that mean a debt collection agency would (have to) assume the same?

Anyway, as I'm too lazy to read the full details QrizB posted above, I thought I'd ask our (not so) trusted friend ChatGPT. Would be interested where it got it right

That’s a very interesting question. Based on the web page and its linked content, as well as some additional research I did using a tool that can search the web, it seems that the supplier cannot sell an unrecoverable debt to a debt collection agency if they have been recompensed for that unrecoverable debt via the new proposed addition to the standing charge. This is because:

• The new proposed addition to the standing charge is a form of bad debt relief, which is a VAT relief scheme that allows suppliers to claim back the VAT they paid on supplies that have not been paid for by the customer1.

• According to the [HMRC guidance] on bad debt relief, there is no entitlement to relief where the value of the supply is more than its open market value, or where the debt has been paid, sold or factored under a valid legal assignment1.

• Therefore, if the supplier sells the debt to a debt collection agency, they would lose the entitlement to bad debt relief, and they would have to repay the VAT they claimed back to HMRC1.

• This would mean that the supplier would not only lose the money they paid for the debt, but also the VAT they reclaimed, which would result in a double loss for them.

• Moreover, selling the debt to a debt collection agency after being recompensed for it via the standing charge would be unfair to the customer, who would have to pay twice for the same debt: once through the higher standing charge, and once to the debt collection agency.

• This would also violate the principle of fairness that Ofgem expects from suppliers when dealing with customers in debt2.

I hope this explains why the supplier cannot sell an unrecoverable debt to a debt collection agency if they have been recompensed for that unrecoverable debt via the new proposed addition to the standing charge. 😊
Do you have any other questions for me? 🤔

 

SAC2334

tifo said:

SAC2334 said:

So what is the alternative to the people who refuse to pay what they owe in energy costs ? Just let them carry on not paying what they owe for another year or two?

Todays smart meters are either in credit or repayment mode so mostly they don t have to be installed /force fitted

"So what is the alternative to the people who refuse to pay what they owe in energy costs ? Just let them carry on not paying what they owe for another year or two?".

Ofcom has said it will allow the energy companies to add £16 a year to bills to pay for the combined debt owed. So the energy will be repaid through everyone else and still fit prepayment meters to take debt from the bill payer. Windfall.

"Todays smart meters are either in credit or repayment mode so mostly they don t have to be installed /force fitted".

Good for the energy companies. It may not be 'force fitted' by breaking the door down but it is 'force fitted' if the bill payer does not want it and the energy company gets a warrant anyway or changes it over, thus forcing the meter to be topped up and debt repaid.

"Breaking the door down " Where did you get that alarmist idea from ?
 I ve been on quite a few force fits and they are always a last resort after possibly dozens of calls at all times of the day and the occupant refuses to make contact or open the door.
Last thing we want to do is go to the courts obtaining a warrant and employing a very well trained locksmith who always enter by either picking or drilling the locks , and replacing the lock with a new one
.Its "force fitted because the occupier refuses to enter into a dialogue . What else can you do ?. The occupier could well have or is , bypassing meters so we have to get in somehow . Stop saying "breaking the door down " we dont have what the police call a big red hammer to cave the door down on a drug bust. By the way, many of our force fits are into cannabis farms of which there are hundreds of thousands of them in the UK

ArbitraryRandom

SAC2334 said:
...we dont have what the police call a big red hammer to cave the door down on a drug bust. By the way, many of our force fits are into cannabis farms of which there are hundreds of thousands of them in the UK

I was just about to post - the one time I've seen (knowingly) a meter be 'forced' changed was when I was at uni and did involve them breaking the door down and drugs... from what I could gather chatting with the guy while they were waiting for the police to finish their search, they 'knew' there was someone in there growing (I think from what he said an anonymous tip-off) but couldn't get a warrant (maybe quickly?) so they brought in the police who could more easily access. 

Tenants were eventually either evicted or did a flit and I assume the landlord ended up stumping for the new door as, given rents in the area at the time, I doubt their deposit covered all the damage I was heard they'd done to the place. 

Couldn't happen to a better bunch of people - fire hazards the lot of them.