Power Of Attorney: spouses rights?

elsien

You can’t force doctors to offer treatment they don’t think it’s in your best interests (and the same applies with people, who do have capacity.)

So if you want them to keep going and they feel treatment is futile, they can still say no. That’s why disputes about prolonging life can end up in a court of protection. 

That aside, the power-of-attorney has a specific section around life-sustaining treatment, such as CPR or artificial ventilation, and whether you want your attorney to have that choice or whether you would prefer to leave it to the medical professionals.

 That’s the whole point of having a power of attorney. To make sure that the people who know you best, and who know what you would have wanted make the decision when you can’t. 

A decision about ending life is slightly different and could still end up in court if the doctors consider that you are not acting in the person’s best interests with the power-of-attorney. But that’s very rare, and most decisions don’t have that degree of complexity.

phonek

(OK, ignoring health LPAs as the can of worms it is, lol!)
Is there anything further to note about financial LPAs not previously mentioned? 

elsien

The joint mortgage would be a biggie. You couldn’t remortgage, or sell up and move elsewhere if your spouse lacks capacity if there is no power-of-attorney. You’d need to go to the court of protection for a deputyship, which, as you already know, is costly and takes a very long time. 

Then there’s things like work pensions, life insurance, et cetera. Anything like that in the person’s name, they won’t talk to you without the legal authority.
People think of power of attorney as only being needed when someone is old and gets dementia but life can throw anyone a curveball at a younger age. 

I’ve seen people end up in mental health units, completely out of the blue, in their 40s and 50s when they have no history of mental health difficulties, or end up in hospital following a stroke.  They can be in there for months and without the power-of-attorney if their illness means they can’t manage their finances, it can leave their partner in serious financial difficulties.

power-of-attorney online is about 82 quid each. It’s a very small cost compared to the difficulties that may ensue without one.

phonek

elsien said:

The joint mortgage would be a biggie... 

Again, interesting. I'm quite surprised these points weren't mentioned clearly enough by M.Lewis during recent broadcasts mentioning the significance of financial LPAs. I guess brevity due to lack of time was at least partially the issue.
But many wouldn't realise these points, so thanks. 

Kat78MFW

Many people think that having a joint account with a spouse (or elderly relative) means that a POA is unnecessary. However, as far as I understand, if one party on a joint account loses capacity and the bank is notified, the bank can freeze access to the account to protect the assets of the incapacitated party. So having a POA is vital - never just rely on a joint account to be able to access joint funds. 

phonek

Kat78MFW said:

Many people think that having a joint account with a spouse (or elderly relative) means that a POA is unnecessary. However, as far as I understand, if one party on a joint account loses capacity and the bank is notified, the bank can freeze access to the account to protect the assets of the incapacitated party. So having a POA is vital - never just rely on a joint account to be able to access joint funds. 

Surely most joint ac's (specialist ac's aside) are operated severally not jointly (hence why either person is able to spend money in said ac); so either party can act for both accordingly. It's typically literally the difference of having a joint ac vs. a personal ac. 

elsien

The difference is that when someone loses capacity, they lose the ability to monitor what is happening with the joint account and to take steps if something goes wrong.
So once the bank becomes aware they have the discretion as to whether to freeze the account or not and they are likely to play it safe to protect the person. Probably  not something you’d be wanting to take a chance on.

EnPointe

phonek said:

So if spouse (with general health LPA decision rights) of (for arguments sake) 'brain dead' partner effectively said turn on/off life support; dr's would have to do as spouse said, rather than the dr's being able to make the final decision? 

elsien said:

And if there’s a choice between where I live, do I stay at home? Do I look at housing with care do I go into residential care and if so, which one? Big place or little place? Which family member is it going to be closest to?  What if there decisions to be made about what I eat, or what I have in my bedroom, or who can visit me? Some of them are very small decisions that can still have a big impact on the person so who would you want to make those decisions for you?

Yeah sure, but would a spouse having decisions authority via a health LPA be the deciding factor in all (most) of such situations? 

Without a health LPA the accomodation  decisions might be subject to  challenge  from a sibling, a child   ( or even a sibling's child)  and the medical decisions  unless end of life would  often presume towards life  sustaining treatment  ( so  you  get that PEG feed, you get admitted to hospital for those antibiotics  ( even if  subsequently a Clinically  decision to have a DNA CPR was put in place,  but that means everything up to CPR or  everything up to level 3 Critical care, even then the ITU admission would be  revisited if / when it was needed unless there  is a  properly constructed  advance  directive  or an LPA and the attorney  holds an informal Advanced Directive from you 

Savvy_Sue

Joint accounts and losing capacity: heard a radio story years ago about a self-employed chap who had an accident and ended up in a coma. Wife phoned bank to explain, and yes, they froze the account. She was left with NO access to money to pay for food for their children (never mind bills!)

It was to protect his interests, ie ensure she couldn't clean out the account and abandon him.

That's why it matters, before it matters. 

I'm not sure FIL would ever have agreed to LPA, even if it had been discussed before his dementia set in. Once it had, even at his best, he wasn't giving up control of anything, TYVM. Which meant the last years of his life were a slight worry that the bank would realise he was no longer competent. Fortunately he'd never managed the finances, so MIL just carried on. 

aliby21

It is also worth doing powers of attorney set out so that in the event that both you and your spouse are incapacitated there is someone who can run your affairs. Especially if you have a child.  It's not inconceivable that you could both, for example, be in a car accident together.