How to proceed

Flugelhorn

Cazzaloulou68 said:

Ok so I’m assuming that my sibling only actually owns a third of the property? Originally 3 people owned property. Father died 11 years ago, so does that mean his share automatically went to mother, essentially giving her 2/3 rds of property and sibling 1 /3 ?. There was no need for probate as he had no other assets and only a few £ in the bank.

comes down to how they owned the property - I think before you said it was "Joint" and that it why there was a plan to sever that and make it tenants in common.

When the three owned it jointly - it ws equally owned by all 3, then on the death of one it is equally owned by the remaining  2.  Father didn't actually have a share - he equally owned all of it and he didn;t have  a share to leave to anyone

Cazzaloulou68

@Flugelhorn thank you for that. When the DIY will is written ,do you think putting “i give my share of the property at……”is suffient 

poppystar

No, it’s back to how it was held. If they were joint tenants not tenants in common then it would simply have become the property of the remaining two. The percentages issue does not apply with joint tenants as regards ownership because a joint tenant can’t leave their interest to anyone else in a Will. 

poppystar

Just another thought if you are about to look for a solicitor with a quick turnaround, a friend who was about to have a very serious operation from which there was doubt about survival actually put her affairs in order with the help of a charity specific to the condition. So within days all was set up and signed. So if there is a charity you could ask for advice or, alternatively, if you have a local hospice they may well know of solicitors who will appreciate the urgency. 

Cazzaloulou68

poppystar said:

No, it’s back to how it was held. If they were joint tenants not tenants in common then it would simply have become the property of the remaining two. The percentages issue does not apply with joint tenants as regards ownership because a joint tenant can’t leave their interest to anyone else in a Will. 

So originally it was mum, dad, sibling owned property. On dad’s death the property became joint for mum and sibling. Dads share did not go to mum it was if mum and sibling always owned property between the two of them. Have i got that right?

Cazzaloulou68

And paperwork all printed to sever joint tenants so they become tenants in common

RAS

In a joint tenancy, each party jointly owns 100% of the property, which is why if mum dies first, the sole survivor (your brother) would inherit the whole property and you as a family lose use of the IHT allowances.

If your brother severs the tenancy now, the assumption will be that he owns 50:50 with your mother.

Flugelhorn

Cazzaloulou68 said:

poppystar said:

No, it’s back to how it was held. If they were joint tenants not tenants in common then it would simply have become the property of the remaining two. The percentages issue does not apply with joint tenants as regards ownership because a joint tenant can’t leave their interest to anyone else in a Will. 

So originally it was mum, dad, sibling owned property. On dad’s death the property became joint for mum and sibling. Dads share did not go to mum it was if mum and sibling always owned property between the two of them. Have i got that right?

yes that is right - now mum and sibling equally own the property but it is soon to be split and they will own 50% each

I think (and someone better qualified can advise) that if you are doing a DIY then it would be that he now leaves "all his estate to be shared between the siblings" - if they have done the severance ie sent off the form and given notice to mum then that should include his TIC share of the property 

poppystar

Cazzaloulou68 said:

poppystar said:

No, it’s back to how it was held. If they were joint tenants not tenants in common then it would simply have become the property of the remaining two. The percentages issue does not apply with joint tenants as regards ownership because a joint tenant can’t leave their interest to anyone else in a Will. 

So originally it was mum, dad, sibling owned property. On dad’s death the property became joint for mum and sibling. Dads share did not go to mum it was if mum and sibling always owned property between the two of them. Have i got that right?

Yes - Dad couldn’t leave his share to anyone in the same way sibling can’t now. Last one alive has the whole property as part of their estate. That’s why severing the tenancy is a good idea. As it stands if mum goes first the whole value of the property will be in sibling’s estate which has the potential to take him over the basic £325k IHT allowance, so tax may be payable. If the other way round then it’s not so bad as mum will also have an extra allowance on her estate, the residential nil rate band, as well as being able to use your late dad’s allowance. 

If sibling’s whole estate with the full value of the house would be less than £325k then you might get away without changing it to tenants in common. (Sorry if you gave the value of the house above, I couldn’t see it)

Land_Registry

Apologies for a slow response to the sign-posting band truly sorry to read of the very sad issues the family is facing. 

There’s probably very little useful advice I can offer here that others haven’t already highlighted. However the key point re the ‘ownership’ of any property is always the distinction between the legal ownership, which we register, and the beneficial ownership which really relates to the wills/trust/shares being referred to. 

The legal ownership is often the simplest to understand and deal with. If you have three or two joint registered owners then on the death of one the legal ownership passes to the surviving owner(s). The legal ownership does not form part of the deceased’s estate. 

Their beneficial ownership, namely their share in the value of the property in most cases, is still protected by the will/trust, but it’s dealt with quite separately from the legal ownership. Often the beneficial ownerships are only realised when the property is converted into £s and pence (it’s value). 

The TIC and JTs referred to can have wider impact but it doesn’t change how the legal ownership is dealt with. That’s as explained above. 

HMLR don’t deal with wills and trusts specifically and can’t advise on IHT or how a deceased’s estate should be dealt with. 

If specific Qs remain re how the property is registered and what happens next re the registered title then please DM me with the address details bearing in mind the limits as explained re any advice we can offer