PCM Parking Charge - In own parking space

Paulcox741

Hi,

My daughter has picked up a couple of PCNs from PCM whilst parking in her own bay in a block of flats she lets. 

I am the registered keeper and only became aware of it following receipt of Notice to Keeper. She's very much into surprises!

I appealed online before finding this forum and have had my initial appeal rejected.

Her defence is that she displayed the parking permit on the parcel shelf visible in the back windscreen. The sign just states 'windscreen' and PCM are quoting the Oxford English Dictionary at me re: the windscreen being at the front of the car.

All the photo evidence supplied is inconclusive. They have pictures of the back of the car but at a distance so cannot tell if the permit is visible. They go onto say this reason is 'not plausible nor acceptable)'.

I haven't divulged who the driver is.

Just after some advice re: next steps as I've missed out the first opportunity to use the templates in the newbies thread.

Cheers

elsien

Has she not approached the landowner/leaseholder get it cancelled? 

Coupon-mad

Tell her to blutack the unwanted 'permit' to the dashboard and check it daily.

My advice (quite genuinely) is that she should consider moving, IMHO.  She is the target of PCM.. All residents are the targets of this 'outrageous scam'.  Do people not realise parking firms are not there to stop trespassers and the permit scheme is not a good thing?

My own twenty-something-aged sons would never rent a flat where a parking firm infests it. We wouldn't have even looked at the flat, knowing ex-clampers PCM were there.

Look:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2015/05/is-it-pcm-uk-who-make-up-stuff-all-time.html?m=1

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/04/pcm-uk-signage-does-not-create-contract.html?m=1

IPC Firms are best ignored these days.  There is no POPLA, if this is an IPC AOS firm.

IMHO, their Trade Body provides no fair or independent appeal service that consumer reviews and their own - now unavailable - archive Annual Reports suggest is worth trying.

Their bad.  Let them dig their holes.  They seem very good at it, from my perspective.

Ignore IPC AOS parking firms.

DO NOT PAY PCNs FROM IPC AOS FIRMS.

Come back to this thread if you get a court claim next year as that is the only fair dispute resolution you get, unless the landowner/managing agents will step in.

Defence is well worth doing. Dead easy. No risk.

Paulcox741

elsien said:

Has she not approached the landowner/leaseholder get it cancelled? 

Silly question but not sure who to approach for that? Tenancy Agreement is with Mr X/Mrs Y c/o the Estate Agent. Can imagine the response she'll get from the Estate Agent. Will try though if you think it's worth a go. 

Paulcox741

Coupon-mad said:

Tell her to blutack the unwanted 'permit' to the dashboard and check it daily.

My advice (quite genuinely) is that she should consider moving, IMHO.  She is the target of PCM.. All residents are the targets of this 'outrageous scam'.  Do people not realise parking firms are not there to stop trespassers and the permit scheme is not a good thing?

My own twenty-something-aged sons would never rent a flat where a parking firm infests it. We wouldn't have even looked at the flat, knowing ex-clampers PCM were there.

Look:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2015/05/is-it-pcm-uk-who-make-up-stuff-all-time.html?m=1

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/04/pcm-uk-signage-does-not-create-contract.html?m=1

IPC Firms are best ignored these days.  There is no POPLA, if this is an IPC AOS firm.

IMHO, their Trade Body provides no fair or independent appeal service that consumer reviews and their own - now unavailable - archive Annual Reports suggest is worth trying.

Their bad.  Let them dig their holes.  They seem very good at it, from my perspective.

Ignore IPC AOS parking firms.

DO NOT PAY PCNs FROM IPC AOS FIRMS.

Come back to this thread if you get a court claim next year as that is the only fair dispute resolution you get, unless the landowner/managing agents will step in.

Defence is well worth doing. Dead easy. No risk.

They've pointed me towards IAS but having a look at other threads and what you've said above it sounds like that is a waste of time. So effectively, do nothing else and wait for them to take me to court?

Coupon-mad

Yep, same as ALL PCM cases!  e.g.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6482264/pcm-fine-appeal-rejected-they-have-now-asked-me-to-appeal-to-ias/p1

Only contact them if you move house because it is unsafe to leave a PPC with a choice of addresses.  You must get them to erase any old address immediately so that you definitely see and laugh at all the £170 debt demands.

This is the same advice I give to friends & family and none have actually had a court claim yet. If they do, they know it's no biggie and no risk as ling as they then defend.  As per this forum's advice.

Paulcox741

Quick update on my original parking charges, I've received numerous letters from PCM/Trace and now at a point where they're engaging solicitors, so currently still ignoring until I receive a LBC. 

This week my daughter has managed to incur another one because whilst she was displaying her permit she was in a visitor bay and not her designated bay. Any advice on that scenario? I think in my previous case I have a reasonable argument but don't really have one in this case (although still need to review what the parking sign actually says).

nopcns

You need to review what your daughter lease/AST agreement says about parking and permits etc. What it doesn't say is equally as important. Any defence will hinge on primacy of contract, signage and landowner agreement.

Paulcox741

Their tenancy agreement says the following.

The Tenant agrees with the Landlord as follows;

9.23. Vehicles and Conveyances

9.23.1. To park private vehicle(s) only at the Premises.

9.23.2. To park in the space allocated to the Premises, if the Tenant is allocated a car parking space.

9.23.3. To park in the garage or the driveway to the Premises if applicable.

9.23.4. To keep any garage, driveway, or parking space free of oil and to pay for the removal and cleaning of any spillage caused by a vehicle of the Tenant, his family, contractors or visitors.

9.23.5. To remove all vehicles belonging to the Tenant, his family or visitors at the end of the Tenancy.

9.23.6. Not to park any vehicle at the Premises that is not in road worthy condition and fully taxed.

9.23.7. Not to bring any motorbike, scooter, or bicycle into any residential part of the Premises.

 

The premises are defined as:

The Premises

References to the “Premises” include reference to any part or parts of the Premises and the boundaries of the same together with the garden, garage and parking space (if applicable);

but excluding; See special conditions if applicable.

There is no reference in the agreement to permits. I'm not sure if 9.23.2 has her banged to rights or whether the fact there is no reference to permits or visitor spaces helps. Any thoughts?

nopcns

So, where in that lease does it mention that the tenant will be bound to parking conditions implemented by a third party who is not a party to the lease? Where does it mention that the tenant must display a permit from a third party who is not a party to the lease?

Perhaps a letter to "Mr X/Mrs Y c/o the Estate Agent" asking to see what the head lease has to say about parking and whether there is anything in that lease that fetters the rights of the leaseholder or their tenants to park in their space. If there isn't, you need to ask why are they allowing an unregulated private parking company (third party) to issue invoices for parking on what is already a right in a lease that has supremacy of contract over anything else unless they went through the process as required under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 Section 37(5)(a) or (b).

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1987/31/section/37

Coupon-mad

Why are so many residents around the country tolerating this scam?  It isn't OK (or financially safe) for car owners to live in an estate with a private 'permit scheme.

Tenants should avoid these places - leave, or avoid even looking at flats in such places - and tell landlords why.  I really wish PPCs are one day banned from high street retail and residential home estates.  It may have to come to that in the end, to remove the blight.