Administrator - applying for letters of administration with Will annexed

LuckyTree

Hi, I’m administrating an estate and most advice online seems geared to executors. 

We will need to apply for letters of administration with Will annexed due to renunciation of executors. Before that can we sell chattels such as a car? I know executors can. Can we register the car in our name to tax and insure it to make it easier to sell?

Has anyone encountered this?

doodling

Hi,

In theory the estate is owned by the Crown in some form (I think!).  Until you have those letters then in theory selling items from the estate constitutes some form of fraud and/or theft (you are selling something you don't own and don't have permission to sell).

Note that very many intestate estates (albeit usually low value ones) are managed by people without letters of administration so it appears that the Crown has a very relaxed approach to people dealing with estates without getting letters of administration and consequently I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Practically, you may run into issues when your insurer asks who owns the car (noting that an incorrect answer may invalidate your insurance and a correct one might lead to them putting your business into the "too complicated to bother with" category).

Keep_pedalling

doodling said:

Hi,

In theory the estate is owned by the Crown in some form (I think!).  Until you have those letters then in theory selling items from the estate constitutes some form of fraud and/or theft (you are selling something you don't own and don't have permission to sell).

Note that very many intestate estates (albeit usually low value ones) are managed by people without letters of administration so it appears that the Crown has a very relaxed approach to people dealing with estates without getting letters of administration and consequently I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Practically, you may run into issues when your insurer asks who owns the car (noting that an incorrect answer may invalidate your insurance and a correct one might lead to them putting your business into the "too complicated to bother with" category).

I would love to know where you came up with the idea that crown owns someone’s estate just because the named executors had renounced.

There is nothing stopping an administrator dealing with the chattels before probate or LOA have been received, A car may be tricky but it can be done there is a guide on doing it on Carwow which you might find useful.

https://www.carwow.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/selling-a-deceased-persons-car?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_account=7397154411&utm_campaign=16455340453&utm_group=133610229283&utm_keyword=&device=c&campaignid=16455340453&adgroupid=133610229283&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMItevHrMOIgwMVgJBQBh0tGgXKEAAYAiAAEgJHdfD_BwE

doodling

Hi,

Keep_pedalling said:

doodling said:

Hi,

In theory the estate is owned by the Crown in some form (I think!).  Until you have those letters then in theory selling items from the estate constitutes some form of fraud and/or theft (you are selling something you don't own and don't have permission to sell).

Note that very many intestate estates (albeit usually low value ones) are managed by people without letters of administration so it appears that the Crown has a very relaxed approach to people dealing with estates without getting letters of administration and consequently I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Practically, you may run into issues when your insurer asks who owns the car (noting that an incorrect answer may invalidate your insurance and a correct one might lead to them putting your business into the "too complicated to bother with" category).

I would love to know where you came up with the idea that crown owns someone’s estate just because the named executors had renounced.

I would be inerested to know who you think owns the estate.  Normally it passes to the executor at the moment of death, but if the executor renounces without intermeddling then it is as if that never happened.

All property has to be owned by someone so who is that someone in this case?

I suspect that looking at some Letters of Administration would reveal who the holder is administering on behalf of.

LuckyTree

Ugh this seems very confusing. I’m a one of 2 main beneficiaries and next of kin so the executors who renounced told me and the other beneficiary to administer the Will. I have to admit I never thought how difficult simple parts of that job would be! They made it sound simple. 

Right now I am just trying to ensure that assets are safe by insuring them. I am getting house insurance quotes (have temp cover) and just wondering how I cover the car when its temp cover runs out soon. No insurance will cover the car because it is not registered in my name. It is off road I just worry about it being stolen etc or just it devaluing, it would be better for the estate if it were sold sooner. DVLA have not got back to me on what to do. 

Keep_pedalling

LuckyTree said:

Ugh this seems very confusing. I’m a one of 2 main beneficiaries and next of kin so the executors who renounced told me and the other beneficiary to administer the Will. I have to admit I never thought how difficult simple parts of that job would be! They made it sound simple. 

Right now I am just trying to ensure that assets are safe by insuring them. I am getting house insurance quotes (have temp cover) and just wondering how I cover the car when its temp cover runs out soon. No insurance will cover the car because it is not registered in my name. It is off road I just worry about it being stolen etc or just it devaluing, it would be better for the estate if it were sold sooner. DVLA have not got back to me on what to do. 

As the two beneficiaries are also administering the estate there is absolutely no issue with you disposing of any asset within the estate that does not require LOA. You are doing nothing wrong and there is zero chance of you getting into legal trouble in doing this.

Keep_pedalling

doodling said:

Hi,

Keep_pedalling said:

doodling said:

Hi,

In theory the estate is owned by the Crown in some form (I think!).  Until you have those letters then in theory selling items from the estate constitutes some form of fraud and/or theft (you are selling something you don't own and don't have permission to sell).

Note that very many intestate estates (albeit usually low value ones) are managed by people without letters of administration so it appears that the Crown has a very relaxed approach to people dealing with estates without getting letters of administration and consequently I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Practically, you may run into issues when your insurer asks who owns the car (noting that an incorrect answer may invalidate your insurance and a correct one might lead to them putting your business into the "too complicated to bother with" category).

I would love to know where you came up with the idea that crown owns someone’s estate just because the named executors had renounced.

I would be inerested to know who you think owns the estate.  Normally it passes to the executor at the moment of death, but if the executor renounces without intermeddling then it is as if that never happened.

All property has to be owned by someone so who is that someone in this case?

I suspect that looking at some Letters of Administration would reveal who the holder is administering on behalf of.

Executors  / administrators do not own the estate they manage it as trustees. The estate a separate legal entity which responsible for its own expenses and taxes. If nothing could legally be done until probate/ LOA had been obtained every small intestate estate would have to go through the process and this is clearly not the case.

acaj13

I was in a similar position regarding my late fathers estate. As your father had a will then generally the beneficiaries of that will can apply for letter of administration(with will annexed). The 2 executors on my fathers will renounced so as the main and only beneficiaries my brothers and I applied for probate(it took a months to come through as had to be done via post not online). In the mean time we sold the car through an online site. Had no problem selling it at all. 

doodling

Hi,

Keep_pedalling said:

doodling said:

Hi,

Keep_pedalling said:

doodling said:

Hi,

In theory the estate is owned by the Crown in some form (I think!).  Until you have those letters then in theory selling items from the estate constitutes some form of fraud and/or theft (you are selling something you don't own and don't have permission to sell).

Note that very many intestate estates (albeit usually low value ones) are managed by people without letters of administration so it appears that the Crown has a very relaxed approach to people dealing with estates without getting letters of administration and consequently I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Practically, you may run into issues when your insurer asks who owns the car (noting that an incorrect answer may invalidate your insurance and a correct one might lead to them putting your business into the "too complicated to bother with" category).

I would love to know where you came up with the idea that crown owns someone’s estate just because the named executors had renounced.

I would be inerested to know who you think owns the estate.  Normally it passes to the executor at the moment of death, but if the executor renounces without intermeddling then it is as if that never happened.

All property has to be owned by someone so who is that someone in this case?

I suspect that looking at some Letters of Administration would reveal who the holder is administering on behalf of.

Executors  / administrators do not own the estate they manage it as trustees. The estate a separate legal entity which responsible for its own expenses and taxes. If nothing could legally be done until probate/ LOA had been obtained every small intestate estate would have to go through the process and this is clearly not the case.

Yes, the executors own the estate from the moment of death, as trustees for the beneficiaries.  I am 100% confident that that is the case.

Trusts are not separate legal persons, I am also 100% confident of that.  Stuff in a trust is legally owned by the trustees.  The beneficial ownership of those assets rests with the beneficiaries of the trust.

I never said that every estate needed probate or Letters Of Administration so I don't know where that came from.
 
Because the executors own the estate from the moment of death then they can do what they like with it (commensurate with their duty to follow the will) from that point onwards.  Probate merely confirms that position for anyone who needs certainty.

In cases where there is no executor then someone must own the estate.  I'm making the assumption that it is the Crown but I could be wrong.

As I noted in my first post, whoever owns the estate in the no executor case seems to have no objection to people managing such estates without getting Letters of Administration.

Keep_pedalling

doodling said:

Hi,

Keep_pedalling said:

doodling said:

Hi,

Keep_pedalling said:

doodling said:

Hi,

In theory the estate is owned by the Crown in some form (I think!).  Until you have those letters then in theory selling items from the estate constitutes some form of fraud and/or theft (you are selling something you don't own and don't have permission to sell).

Note that very many intestate estates (albeit usually low value ones) are managed by people without letters of administration so it appears that the Crown has a very relaxed approach to people dealing with estates without getting letters of administration and consequently I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Practically, you may run into issues when your insurer asks who owns the car (noting that an incorrect answer may invalidate your insurance and a correct one might lead to them putting your business into the "too complicated to bother with" category).

I would love to know where you came up with the idea that crown owns someone’s estate just because the named executors had renounced.

I would be inerested to know who you think owns the estate.  Normally it passes to the executor at the moment of death, but if the executor renounces without intermeddling then it is as if that never happened.

All property has to be owned by someone so who is that someone in this case?

I suspect that looking at some Letters of Administration would reveal who the holder is administering on behalf of.

Executors  / administrators do not own the estate they manage it as trustees. The estate a separate legal entity which responsible for its own expenses and taxes. If nothing could legally be done until probate/ LOA had been obtained every small intestate estate would have to go through the process and this is clearly not the case.

Yes, the executors own the estate from the moment of death, as trustees for the beneficiaries.  I am 100% confident that that is the case.

Trusts are not separate legal persons, I am also 100% confident of that.  Stuff in a trust is legally owned by the trustees.  The beneficial ownership of those assets rests with the beneficiaries of the trust.

I never said that every estate needed probate or Letters Of Administration so I don't know where that came from.
 
Because the executors own the estate from the moment of death then they can do what they like with it (commensurate with their duty to follow the will) from that point onwards.  Probate merely confirms that position for anyone who needs certainty.

In cases where there is no executor then someone must own the estate.  I'm making the assumption that it is the Crown but I could be wrong.

As I noted in my first post, whoever owns the estate in the no executor case seems to have no objection to people managing such estates without getting Letters of Administration.

This is not the place for a debate as this does not help the OP, but for anyone to say they are 100% correct they either need to be experts in the law or provide a citation that supports that claim. I suspect that neither applies as I a pretty sure you are very much wrong but am happy to be corrected if you can provide the evidence.