economy 7

squizz11

My elderly mum has been on economy 7 for a while and her bills have always been high and we have just moved her to octopus.   talking to another neighbour and his bill is alot cheaper, he pays £118 per month and gets in credit every uear,  my mum has been paying roughly 170-200.
we always assumed rate 1 was day and rate 2 was night,  she uses more on the rate 1 than rate 2 but she is always careful.   she microwaves rather than the oven, her heating is storage heaters and she boils the kettle a few times.   have we been wrong about rate 1 and rate 2,  does economy 7 use more at night?

we have never been told which is which

MultiFuelBurner

Easy to find out with power being drawn see which register goes up midday would be good confirming that's the day register.

Justa  side not just because someone elses bill is said to be cheaper you can compare energy usage like that without knowing the uns and our if all energy use/heating/hot water etc etc.

QrizB

MultiFuelBurner said:

Easy to find out with power being drawn see which register goes up midday would be good confirming that's the day register.

Also, some (most?) meters will tell you which register is active ant any particular time.

Is this a smart meter or dumb one?

Robin9

squizz11 said:

My elderly mum has been on economy 7 for a while and her bills have always been high and we have just moved her to octopus.   talking to another neighbour and his bill is alot cheaper, he pays £118 per month and gets in credit every uear,  my mum has been paying roughly 170-200.
we always assumed rate 1 was day and rate 2 was night,  she uses more on the rate 1 than rate 2 but she is always careful.   she microwaves rather than the oven, her heating is storage heaters and she boils the kettle a few times.   have we been wrong about rate 1 and rate 2,  does economy 7 use more at night?

we have never been told which is which

Have you her actual annual figures for both Rate 1 and Rate 2.

s MFB which 

squizz11

Robin9 said:

squizz11 said:

My elderly mum has been on economy 7 for a while and her bills have always been high and we have just moved her to octopus.   talking to another neighbour and his bill is alot cheaper, he pays £118 per month and gets in credit every uear,  my mum has been paying roughly 170-200.
we always assumed rate 1 was day and rate 2 was night,  she uses more on the rate 1 than rate 2 but she is always careful.   she microwaves rather than the oven, her heating is storage heaters and she boils the kettle a few times.   have we been wrong about rate 1 and rate 2,  does economy 7 use more at night?

we have never been told which is which

Have you her actual annual figures for both Rate 1 and Rate 2.

s MFB which 

Aug 22 rate 1 = 31166

dec 23 rate 1= 33157 

aug 22 rate 2 = 02530

Dec 23 rate 2 = 10667

we have always put down rate one as peak and rate two as off peak.

Scot_39

Whilst the presence of nsh would tend to the assumption off peak night rate consumption should be higher - that is not always true.

And with typical split say 15p off peak 35p peak - you realky do not want to be using the wrong rate via badly setup devices.


You may need to do 3 things depending on how your mums hw and nsh operate / are wired

1) check which meter register is accumulating during day and / or night periods.

So take readings morning and evening (and possibly following morning) for instance to establish register for day rate (and night).

You don't mention mums meter type - analogue, digital, single or twin meters, dumb digital or smart etc.


My smart meter ihd tells me when rates are about to switching up / down in cost with a download timer.

And shows the p/kWh rate live at the time (well within about 10-15 sec of switching) in a sub menu. 

Others - digital or smart - many meters will have a rate 1 rate 2 symbol live on actual meter display.

Assuming nsh or hw immersion heaters have off peak supply - do the sockets have leds that signal supply live - often easiest way ?

Note old analogue e7 meter switch timers have been known to drift several hours over lifetime, even digital can drift sec or mins per year in some cases.

And whilst a regional setting maybe say 1230 to 730am - individual meters can have upto 10-15 min offsets iirc.  And not all meters in same supply region are set the same.

If any doubt that nsh or hw immersion using peak or off peak

2) check exact times meter switch between rates

3) check when nsh are configured to use max input power to charge "bricks", check when hw tank immersion heater switches to active.

The old system where nsh only had off peak switched supplies so only ever used cheap rate electric have become rarer.

Many modern nsh are dual wired to peak and off peak circuits - also have secondary heaters (dimplex boost, elnur balance element etc ) that can operate at peak rate.

Some even allow single wiring to 24/7 live supplies, and need nsh charge times set to match the meter off peak rate timing.

Its probably unrealistic to expect your elderly mum to figure that all out by herself.

But she, you or if necessary an electrician / heater installer really need to ensure any heavy loads are using the off peak rate where possible.

Based on past reports cannot always rely on say LHA fitters to have set them up and explained operation properly.


We would need to know more re metering and wiring / supply arrangements.  And nsh model series r at least wiring etc to be more specific.

As to neighbour comparisons - unless your mums flat and usage pattern exactly matches - comparisons with neighbours could be pretty meaningless.

Last time I checked meter usage comparison sites last winter my next door neighbour used c60% more kWh annually.
The family of 3 on other side used nearly 2.5 times the amount.

squizz11

Scot_39 said:

Whilst the presence of nsh would tend to the assumption off peak night rate consumption should be higher - that is not always true.

And with typical split say 15p off peak 35p peak - you realky do not want to be using the wrong rate via badly setup devices.


You may need to do 3 things depending on how your mums hw and nsh operate / are wired

1) check which meter register is accumulating during day and / or night periods.

So take readings morning and evening (and possibly following morning) for instance to establish register for day rate (and night).

You don't mention mums meter type - analogue, digital, single or twin meters, dumb digital or smart etc.


My smart meter ihd tells me when rates are about to switching up / down in cost with a download timer.

And shows the p/kWh rate live at the time (well within about 10-15 sec of switching) in a sub menu. 

Others - digital or smart - many meters will have a rate 1 rate 2 symbol live on actual meter display.

Assuming nsh or hw immersion heaters have off peak supply - do the sockets have leds that signal supply live - often easiest way ?

Note old analogue e7 meter switch timers have been known to drift several hours over lifetime, even digital can drift sec or mins per year in some cases.

And whilst a regional setting maybe say 1230 to 730am - individual meters can have upto 10-15 min offsets iirc.  And not all meters in same supply region are set the same.

If any doubt that nsh or hw immersion using peak or off peak

2) check exact times meter switch between rates

3) check when nsh are configured to use max input power to charge "bricks", check when hw tank immersion heater switches to active.

The old system where nsh only had off peak switched supplies so only ever used cheap rate electric have become rarer.

Many modern nsh are dual wired to peak and off peak circuits - also have secondary heaters (dimplex boost, elnur balance element etc ) that can operate at peak rate.

Some even allow single wiring to 24/7 live supplies, and need nsh charge times set to match the meter off peak rate timing.

Its probably unrealistic to expect your elderly mum to figure that all out by herself.

But she, you or if necessary an electrician / heater installer really need to ensure any heavy loads are using the off peak rate where possible.

Based on past reports cannot always rely on say LHA fitters to have set them up and explained operation properly.


We would need to know more re metering and wiring / supply arrangements.  And nsh model series r at least wiring etc to be more specific.

As to neighbour comparisons - unless your mums flat and usage pattern exactly matches - comparisons with neighbours could be pretty meaningless.

Last time I checked meter usage comparison sites last winter my next door neighbour used c60% more kWh annually.
The family of 3 on other side used nearly 2.5 times the amount.

alot of what you've said has gone over my head tbh.

my mum lives in a sheltered accommodation bungalow,   her neighbours have the exact same set up, same heaters etc.   the two neighbours we spoke to both have two people living there ,my mum is on her own.  only difference is they have smart meters my mum doesn't.

the only thing I can do is get a picture of the meter and do a reading whilst I'm over there.

QrizB

squizz11 said:

Aug 22 rate 1 = 31166

dec 23 rate 1= 33157 

aug 22 rate 2 = 02530

Dec 23 rate 2 = 10667

we have always put down rate one as peak and rate two as off peak.

That's 1991kWh of Rate 1 in the period, and 8137kWh of Rate 2.

I would hope that Rate 2 is the off-peak register, and Rate 1 is the peak register.

But you said:

squizz11 said:

we always assumed rate 1 was day and rate 2 was night,  she uses more on the rate 1 than rate 2

From those figures, she is using much more on Rate 2.

The current E7 rates for Octopus in my area are peak 34.99p/kWh, off-peak 14.56p/kWh.

• If Rate 2 is off-peak, that would be £1881 for the period (plus standing charge).
• If Rate 2 is peak, it would be £3137 for the period (plus SC).

So with you putting rate 1 own as peak and rate 2 down as off-peak, you've got the lower cost.

You should still check which rate is active at what time of day, but on the face of things it looks as though you've got it right.

Scot_39

squizz11 said:

Scot_39 said:

Whilst the presence of nsh would tend to the assumption off peak night rate consumption should be higher - that is not always true.

And with typical split say 15p off peak 35p peak - you realky do not want to be using the wrong rate via badly setup devices.


You may need to do 3 things depending on how your mums hw and nsh operate / are wired

1) check which meter register is accumulating during day and / or night periods.

So take readings morning and evening (and possibly following morning) for instance to establish register for day rate (and night).

You don't mention mums meter type - analogue, digital, single or twin meters, dumb digital or smart etc.


My smart meter ihd tells me when rates are about to switching up / down in cost with a download timer.

And shows the p/kWh rate live at the time (well within about 10-15 sec of switching) in a sub menu. 

Others - digital or smart - many meters will have a rate 1 rate 2 symbol live on actual meter display.

Assuming nsh or hw immersion heaters have off peak supply - do the sockets have leds that signal supply live - often easiest way ?

Note old analogue e7 meter switch timers have been known to drift several hours over lifetime, even digital can drift sec or mins per year in some cases.

And whilst a regional setting maybe say 1230 to 730am - individual meters can have upto 10-15 min offsets iirc.  And not all meters in same supply region are set the same.

If any doubt that nsh or hw immersion using peak or off peak

2) check exact times meter switch between rates

3) check when nsh are configured to use max input power to charge "bricks", check when hw tank immersion heater switches to active.

The old system where nsh only had off peak switched supplies so only ever used cheap rate electric have become rarer.

Many modern nsh are dual wired to peak and off peak circuits - also have secondary heaters (dimplex boost, elnur balance element etc ) that can operate at peak rate.

Some even allow single wiring to 24/7 live supplies, and need nsh charge times set to match the meter off peak rate timing.

Its probably unrealistic to expect your elderly mum to figure that all out by herself.

But she, you or if necessary an electrician / heater installer really need to ensure any heavy loads are using the off peak rate where possible.

Based on past reports cannot always rely on say LHA fitters to have set them up and explained operation properly.


We would need to know more re metering and wiring / supply arrangements.  And nsh model series r at least wiring etc to be more specific.

As to neighbour comparisons - unless your mums flat and usage pattern exactly matches - comparisons with neighbours could be pretty meaningless.

Last time I checked meter usage comparison sites last winter my next door neighbour used c60% more kWh annually.
The family of 3 on other side used nearly 2.5 times the amount.

alot of what you've said has gone over my head tbh.

my mum lives in a sheltered accommodation bungalow,   her neighbours have the exact same set up, same heaters etc.   the two neighbours we spoke to both have two people living there ,my mum is on her own.  only difference is they have smart meters my mum doesn't.

the only thing I can do is get a picture of the meter and do a reading whilst I'm over there.

Sadly thats exactly why for a minority their costs end up way wrong.

The options are many - and errors whilst rare are not that uncommon that can be safely discounted when people complain bills so far out cf expectations.

Hopefully given the common / I hope more controlled circumstances - it's just a case of checking you have the right registers being charged at day / night rate.

I would hope given the 80%:20%  rate 2 : rate 1 split - that rate 2 is off peak.

But with nearly 10000kWh - c8000kWh off peak ? rate 2 over 16 months - 7500kWh pa, 6000kWh rate 2 pa assuming primarily for hw and heating - is on the high side cf Ofgem TDCV - their medium use now 3900kWh pa total, their high use 6900 kWh pa.

But sadly elderly often need higher temps - and that means far higher costs.

squizz11

the off peak just stores the heat from 12 till 7,   do we have any control over that?   I'm used to GCH and I kinda get how that works,   but we don't have a clue with storage heaters

Gerry1

squizz11 said:

Scot_39 said:

Whilst the presence of nsh would tend to the assumption off peak night rate consumption should be higher - that is not always true.

And with typical split say 15p off peak 35p peak - you realky do not want to be using the wrong rate via badly setup devices.


You may need to do 3 things depending on how your mums hw and nsh operate / are wired

1) check which meter register is accumulating during day and / or night periods.

So take readings morning and evening (and possibly following morning) for instance to establish register for day rate (and night).

You don't mention mums meter type - analogue, digital, single or twin meters, dumb digital or smart etc.


My smart meter ihd tells me when rates are about to switching up / down in cost with a download timer.

And shows the p/kWh rate live at the time (well within about 10-15 sec of switching) in a sub menu. 

Others - digital or smart - many meters will have a rate 1 rate 2 symbol live on actual meter display.

Assuming nsh or hw immersion heaters have off peak supply - do the sockets have leds that signal supply live - often easiest way ?

Note old analogue e7 meter switch timers have been known to drift several hours over lifetime, even digital can drift sec or mins per year in some cases.

And whilst a regional setting maybe say 1230 to 730am - individual meters can have upto 10-15 min offsets iirc.  And not all meters in same supply region are set the same.

If any doubt that nsh or hw immersion using peak or off peak

2) check exact times meter switch between rates

3) check when nsh are configured to use max input power to charge "bricks", check when hw tank immersion heater switches to active.

The old system where nsh only had off peak switched supplies so only ever used cheap rate electric have become rarer.

Many modern nsh are dual wired to peak and off peak circuits - also have secondary heaters (dimplex boost, elnur balance element etc ) that can operate at peak rate.

Some even allow single wiring to 24/7 live supplies, and need nsh charge times set to match the meter off peak rate timing.

Its probably unrealistic to expect your elderly mum to figure that all out by herself.

But she, you or if necessary an electrician / heater installer really need to ensure any heavy loads are using the off peak rate where possible.

Based on past reports cannot always rely on say LHA fitters to have set them up and explained operation properly.


We would need to know more re metering and wiring / supply arrangements.  And nsh model series r at least wiring etc to be more specific.

As to neighbour comparisons - unless your mums flat and usage pattern exactly matches - comparisons with neighbours could be pretty meaningless.

Last time I checked meter usage comparison sites last winter my next door neighbour used c60% more kWh annually.
The family of 3 on other side used nearly 2.5 times the amount.

the only thing I can do is get a picture of the meter and do a reading whilst I'm over there.9

With respect, you need to do a bit more and it won't be difficult.  Assuming it's an all-electric property, visit preferably around lunchtime and take photos of both registers, turn on the oven and the hotplate and see which register increases.

Then look at the hot tank and the immersion heater wiring, and the associated spur outlets (more photos please).  If there are two immersion heaters the lower one should be on an E7 supply and left switched on.  The upper one should be on a 24h suppply (possibly labelled Boost) and left switched off.

Finally, takes photos of the storage heaters, find the make and model number (may be tucked away on a small plate at floor level).  Is it an old Box of Bricks NSH with two knobs or a modern High Heat Retention NSH with a fan and an electronic screen?

If you post this info then we can give you some more precise advice.