Migrating to UC problems

DressingDown

Yamor said:

DressingDown said:

Yamor said:

HMRC won't have the information about the spousal maintenance, but UC should take it into account when calculating transitional protection, so you should be entitled to at least as much as you were getting on tax credits.

As it is an informal agreement, you could look to change the agreement with your ex so that it is child maintenance rather than spousal maintenance. If you only do this after your UC claim is up and running, then you could do significantly better than you are currently doing, as the transitional element will still be paid (it is based on circumstances at the point of transfer).

Thanks for your comment. I’m not sure I understand though. You mention that UC transitional is based on the circumstances “at the point of transfer”. So at the point of transfer (this moment) my ex pays me an amount for that I think will be viewed as “spousal maintenance” as the amount matches the mortgage amount that I have to then pay for the flat me and the kids live in. 

So won’t that go AGAINST me rather than FOR me?  “Spousal maintenance” is taken off the amount of UC I would otherwise receive. (Child maintenance is not) 

Correct, it does go against you in your UC entitlement, but transitional protection is designed to protect you from that, and ensure you still get at least as much as you were getting on tax credits, despite having the spousal maintenance.

Say you were getting £500/month on tax credits, and on UC due to the spousal maintenance (and the deemed income from your capital), you are only entitled to £100.
Transitional protection will give you an extra element of £400/month to ensure you still get £500/month.

If your spousal maintenance then stops and is replaced with child maintenance, your UC entitlement before the extra element may go up to say £400/month. But you will them still get the extra £400 element, meaning your total entitlement would now be £800/month.

Thank you. I understand your first two paragraphs but not the third (sorry!). 

So basically

1) transitional protection will allow me to have the same income as on CTC per month even though I have savings over £16k and what might be deemed as “spousal maintenance” ?

2) after 12 months of transitional protection, I won’t be eligible for anything due to having over £16k of savings. And therefore it won’t matter whether the money my ex gives me each month is classed as “spousal maintenance” or “child maintenance” because my savings will rule me ineligible after Dec 2024 anyway. 

Would you agree with this summary? 

poppy12345

DressingDown said:

Yamor said:

DressingDown said:

Yamor said:

HMRC won't have the information about the spousal maintenance, but UC should take it into account when calculating transitional protection, so you should be entitled to at least as much as you were getting on tax credits.

As it is an informal agreement, you could look to change the agreement with your ex so that it is child maintenance rather than spousal maintenance. If you only do this after your UC claim is up and running, then you could do significantly better than you are currently doing, as the transitional element will still be paid (it is based on circumstances at the point of transfer).

Thanks for your comment. I’m not sure I understand though. You mention that UC transitional is based on the circumstances “at the point of transfer”. So at the point of transfer (this moment) my ex pays me an amount for that I think will be viewed as “spousal maintenance” as the amount matches the mortgage amount that I have to then pay for the flat me and the kids live in. 

So won’t that go AGAINST me rather than FOR me?  “Spousal maintenance” is taken off the amount of UC I would otherwise receive. (Child maintenance is not) 

Correct, it does go against you in your UC entitlement, but transitional protection is designed to protect you from that, and ensure you still get at least as much as you were getting on tax credits, despite having the spousal maintenance.

Say you were getting £500/month on tax credits, and on UC due to the spousal maintenance (and the deemed income from your capital), you are only entitled to £100.
Transitional protection will give you an extra element of £400/month to ensure you still get £500/month.

If your spousal maintenance then stops and is replaced with child maintenance, your UC entitlement before the extra element may go up to say £400/month. But you will them still get the extra £400 element, meaning your total entitlement would now be £800/month.

Thank you. I understand your first two paragraphs but not the third (sorry!). 

So basically

1) transitional protection will allow me to have the same income as on CTC per month even though I have savings over £16k and what might be deemed as “spousal maintenance” ?

2) after 12 months of transitional protection, I won’t be eligible for anything due to having over £16k of savings. And therefore it won’t matter whether the money my ex gives me each month is classed as “spousal maintenance” or “child maintenance” because my savings will rule me ineligible after Dec 2024 anyway. 

Would you agree with this summary? 

That's correct. I don't know if this has been mentioned but if your savings drop below £16,000 and then go back above £16,000 then entitlement to UC will end, even if it's before the 12 month disregard ends.

Yamor

DressingDown said:

Yamor said:

DressingDown said:

Yamor said:

HMRC won't have the information about the spousal maintenance, but UC should take it into account when calculating transitional protection, so you should be entitled to at least as much as you were getting on tax credits.

As it is an informal agreement, you could look to change the agreement with your ex so that it is child maintenance rather than spousal maintenance. If you only do this after your UC claim is up and running, then you could do significantly better than you are currently doing, as the transitional element will still be paid (it is based on circumstances at the point of transfer).

Thanks for your comment. I’m not sure I understand though. You mention that UC transitional is based on the circumstances “at the point of transfer”. So at the point of transfer (this moment) my ex pays me an amount for that I think will be viewed as “spousal maintenance” as the amount matches the mortgage amount that I have to then pay for the flat me and the kids live in. 

So won’t that go AGAINST me rather than FOR me?  “Spousal maintenance” is taken off the amount of UC I would otherwise receive. (Child maintenance is not) 

Correct, it does go against you in your UC entitlement, but transitional protection is designed to protect you from that, and ensure you still get at least as much as you were getting on tax credits, despite having the spousal maintenance.

Say you were getting £500/month on tax credits, and on UC due to the spousal maintenance (and the deemed income from your capital), you are only entitled to £100.
Transitional protection will give you an extra element of £400/month to ensure you still get £500/month.

If your spousal maintenance then stops and is replaced with child maintenance, your UC entitlement before the extra element may go up to say £400/month. But you will them still get the extra £400 element, meaning your total entitlement would now be £800/month.

Thank you. I understand your first two paragraphs but not the third (sorry!). 

So basically

1) transitional protection will allow me to have the same income as on CTC per month even though I have savings over £16k and what might be deemed as “spousal maintenance” ?

2) after 12 months of transitional protection, I won’t be eligible for anything due to having over £16k of savings. And therefore it won’t matter whether the money my ex gives me each month is classed as “spousal maintenance” or “child maintenance” because my savings will rule me ineligible after Dec 2024 anyway. 

Would you agree with this summary? 

Yes, absolutely correct.

My third paragraph was just attempting to show what would happen if the spousal maintenance changed to child maintenance during that 12 months of entitlement to UC. As you would still get the transitional top up, you would end up significantly better off.

DressingDown

poppy12345 said:

DressingDown said:

Yamor said:

DressingDown said:

Yamor said:

HMRC won't have the information about the spousal maintenance, but UC should take it into account when calculating transitional protection, so you should be entitled to at least as much as you were getting on tax credits.

As it is an informal agreement, you could look to change the agreement with your ex so that it is child maintenance rather than spousal maintenance. If you only do this after your UC claim is up and running, then you could do significantly better than you are currently doing, as the transitional element will still be paid (it is based on circumstances at the point of transfer).

Thanks for your comment. I’m not sure I understand though. You mention that UC transitional is based on the circumstances “at the point of transfer”. So at the point of transfer (this moment) my ex pays me an amount for that I think will be viewed as “spousal maintenance” as the amount matches the mortgage amount that I have to then pay for the flat me and the kids live in. 

So won’t that go AGAINST me rather than FOR me?  “Spousal maintenance” is taken off the amount of UC I would otherwise receive. (Child maintenance is not) 

Correct, it does go against you in your UC entitlement, but transitional protection is designed to protect you from that, and ensure you still get at least as much as you were getting on tax credits, despite having the spousal maintenance.

Say you were getting £500/month on tax credits, and on UC due to the spousal maintenance (and the deemed income from your capital), you are only entitled to £100.
Transitional protection will give you an extra element of £400/month to ensure you still get £500/month.

If your spousal maintenance then stops and is replaced with child maintenance, your UC entitlement before the extra element may go up to say £400/month. But you will them still get the extra £400 element, meaning your total entitlement would now be £800/month.

Thank you. I understand your first two paragraphs but not the third (sorry!). 

So basically

1) transitional protection will allow me to have the same income as on CTC per month even though I have savings over £16k and what might be deemed as “spousal maintenance” ?

2) after 12 months of transitional protection, I won’t be eligible for anything due to having over £16k of savings. And therefore it won’t matter whether the money my ex gives me each month is classed as “spousal maintenance” or “child maintenance” because my savings will rule me ineligible after Dec 2024 anyway. 

Would you agree with this summary? 

That's correct. I don't know if this has been mentioned but if your savings drop below £16,000 and then go back above £16,000 then entitlement to UC will end, even if it's before the 12 month disregard ends.

Thank you. 

So in theory it’s worth me continuing the UC claim, if I can cope with the non stop messages and demands for information and to come to the house. The phoning me and then continuing to demand I continued the call despite me saying how ill I was from chemo has sent me over the edge though. At the moment I can’t face it. 

TimeLord1

DressingDown said:

TimeLord1 said:

It's cases like this that leave people little faith in the system it needs a tick box if you are currently on ESA that stops the computer from generating the same process for each and every claim and a unqualified phone jockey ticking boxes to get a bonus for wrecking someone's life in a few clicks I would be livid and be fighting a system that was essentially attacking people. 

So will my ESA (cont) continue whether I claim
for UC or not? Or if I stop my UC claim, will the ESA (cont) finish? 

The contribution ESA will remain outside of Universal Credit but if you have any income related payments they would be moved to Universal credit but if your savings are above the £16,000. Then that would stop any income related amount but the claim however far in will remain until ESA confirms your Lcwra with UC but most likely it will be a while but just keep them informed through the journal which is as others have said ' a computer tick box generated process. 

Spoonie_Turtle

TimeLord1 said:

DressingDown said:

TimeLord1 said:

It's cases like this that leave people little faith in the system it needs a tick box if you are currently on ESA that stops the computer from generating the same process for each and every claim and a unqualified phone jockey ticking boxes to get a bonus for wrecking someone's life in a few clicks I would be livid and be fighting a system that was essentially attacking people. 

So will my ESA (cont) continue whether I claim
for UC or not? Or if I stop my UC claim, will the ESA (cont) finish? 

The contribution ESA will remain outside of Universal Credit but if you have any income related payments they would be moved to Universal credit but if your savings are above the £16,000. Then that would stop any income related amount but the claim however far in will remain until ESA confirms your Lcwra with UC but most likely it will be a while but just keep them informed through the journal which is as others have said ' a computer tick box generated process. 

Not for 12 months with the transitional protection for a managed migration from TC to UC.

xxxxxxxx

Hi, 

Regarding your savings proof and home visit. You have presumably declared your savings amount as £XXK - £XXXK  (the amount you have).  I do not see any need for any proof of sight.  As I see it, they have no right to ask you for proof because you have declared you have over the higher threshold.  

However, arguing that to them would be futile. I recommend they come to your house and you deal with them through a slightly open window. Keep them outside.  Make a note of this in the journal that you cannot allow them to enter your house.  And put in a formal complaint of these points...

(If you made a journal message to say "I have ESA Support Group" I will refer to this message as YY/YY/2023, otherwise delete this reference)

I suggest putting this in your journal:

This is a complaint, I wish to have a response from a senior manager to this Journal.

I am currently in receipt of payments of Employment and Support Allowance Contributory with the Support Group component. 

Under Universal Credit Regulations 2013 Reg 40 (1)(a)(ii)  I am deemed to have LCWRA on this UC claim.
Under Universal Credit Regulations 2013 Reg 28 (5)(b)(i)...  Reg 28 (1) does not apply.  

Please refer this to a relevant Decision Maker to ensure that I am awarded LCWRA Element from xx/xx/2023  (the start date of your UC claim).  

As I have LCWRA, I do not have to look for work. 


Despite my journal messages(JM) dated YY/YY/2023 where I told you I have ESA Support Group & XX/XX/2023 requesting no communication by phone. I received a phone call from UC on xx/xx/2023 from "whatshisname" saying he wanted to discuss my self employment. I explained that I had requested no phone calls as I was not well enough, and that today I was ill, recovering from chemo and asked he communicate via email or message as requested. He pressed me to continue with the call. I again said that I was not well enough due to having had chemotherapy for cancer treatment. He again said "It was in my benefit to continue the call." My head was spinning and I said to him politely that I was not well enough to do so and asked him to communicate another way, and said goodbye. 

I have declared I am on Chemo in the JM dated XX/XX/2023, I also declared in my Final Declaration, my health conditions and that I am receiving chemo therapy. This alone would be enough for whatshisname to treat me as having NWRR and therefore not subject to any work requirements. but the fact that I also declared in JM YY/YY/2023 of having ESA Support Group.  Whatshisname should not have called me at all as there was no gainful employment decision to be made.

I want to complain about whatshisname's unempathetic phone manner, he caused me a lot of pain and stress on that day and he should have known not only from my journal messages but from my telling him on that phone call I was unwell due to having Chemotherapy, which is a Schedule 9, 'Treat as LCWRA descriptor'. Therefore there was no gainful self employment decision to be made.  His correct course of action as a work coach was to treat me as having NWRR and not to call me at all.  And having called me, he should have ended the call as soon as he became aware why I was unwell.

He then made his gainful self employment decision whilst apparently denying my request for a communications format Reasonable Adjustment. He made his decision when he was knowingly not in possession of all the facts. He has not behaved in a reasonable, unbiased and fair manner.

I have also declared my savings as being £XXK  which is far in excess of the limit of £16,000 I do not see any need for proof of savings to be provided as they are already declared to be in excess of £16,000.  I cannot attend the jobcentre as I am immuno isolated(?) I offered to upload the documents. Why has this request been denied?  Sending someone to my house, I cannot let them enter my house and can show them documents through the window but tell me how is this any different from my uploading my documents? Not to mention the humiliation you will cause me to have my neighbours see this.

DressingDown

Thanks for all comments so far. I must admit I’m still upset with the harassment of the caller last week. It really shouldn’t happen and he really should have stopped straight away rather than continue to harass me to continue the call “for my benefit”. But….Would a complaint at this stage be beneficial to me? I’m scared that it’ll just provoke them into more being obstructive. 

DressingDown

Can someone confirm my general understanding (still recovering from chemo and have brain fog so apologies if you feel I’m not getting it very quickly).

1) I’m on support group of ESA (cont). This should continue separately to UC, no matter if I stop the claim for UC, or press ahead with it. 

2) ESA should communicate with UC at some point to tell them I am in the support group. But in the meantime I should write in my journal that I am LWRCA and therefore have no work commitments at all, and should not have to submit expenses and incomes every month, let alone search for a job. And that the person who wrote that I should look for a job is incorrect. 

3) I can continue with my two hours a week self employment (which I enjoy, and makes me feel “useful”/boosts self esteem - everything that “permitted work” is supposed to encourage). This is classed as “permitted work” under ESA rules and will continue to be classed as such without me having to submit monthly income and expenses reports to my journal. 
4) my ex gives me money every month which is the same amount as the mortgage i have to pay on the flat where me and the kids live. This is more than the UC I will receive. In 12 months this will invalidate a claim for UC unless I can get it recategorised as “child maintenance” rather than “spousal maintenance” .

5) my savings are above 16k (and I have honestly put all of them on the UC form, down to the nearest penny). I’ve asked to upload them but they want to send someone to the house. I don’t want them inside in case they have a virus etc and I am on chemo. So I could press them up against a window along with my ID to solve this issue. Although one of you has suggested that as I’ve stated the savings are over 16k, why do they need to see them? These savings will not prevent me getting UC for 12 months of transitional protection but will invalidate my claim after Dec 2024.
6) I have a part ownership of the flat which was purchased with my ex as a second home prior to my CTC claim. Ex now lives there and has the children there overnight although they live majority of time with me. This ownership will invalidate my claim to UC after Dec 2024.
7) during the next 12 months of transitional protection, none of the above income sources will invalidate me receiving 12 months of UC. But after that, they will combine to invalidate my claim and from that point, I won’t receive any UC, just ESA (cont).
8) the constant messages from them in my journal are computer generated and should calm down. 

Spoonie_Turtle

DressingDown said:

1) I’m on support group of ESA (cont). This should continue separately to UC, no matter if I stop the claim for UC, or press ahead with it.   YES

2) ESA should communicate with UC at some point to tell them I am in the support group. But in the meantime I should write in my journal that I am LWRCA and therefore have no work commitments at all, YES
and should not have to submit expenses and incomes every month - NOT correct, you still have to declare income/expenses each month,
let alone search for a job. And that the person who wrote that I should look for a job is incorrect.  CORRECT - no job searching or work-related appointments/courses/anything like that

3) I can continue with my two hours a week self employment (which I enjoy, and makes me feel “useful”/boosts self esteem - everything that “permitted work” is supposed to encourage). This is classed as “permitted work” under ESA rules and will continue to be classed as such YES
without me having to submit monthly income and expenses reports to my journal. NO - covered above

 4, 5) unsure

6) I have a part ownership of the flat … This ownership will invalidate my claim to UC after Dec 2024.  YES

7) during the next 12 months of transitional protection, …(first part unsure)… . But after that, they will combine to invalidate my claim and from that point, I won’t receive any UC, just ESA (cont). YES

8) the constant messages from them in my journal are computer generated and should calm down.  YES - a case of the system not having all the relevant info (your LCWRA) to make it do the correct things

Responses in bold so hopefully it makes it easier to process which answers belongs with what.