Smart Meters and EV charging

JSHarris · 18 December 2023 at 1:24PM

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

MeteredOut said:

Is that the same "news" that says EVs burst into flames every day? There's quite a simple way to find out how much car (including EV) insurance costs increased, and the click-bait news articles is not it...

If someone really wants to get scared about cars catching fire then it's worth looking at the hard data from the fire service. Nearly 300 cars catch fire in the UK every day, believe it or not, almost all of them are petrol or diesel powered: https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/

Believe it or not? I choose not to believe it.
From the official .gov.uk statistics, "in the year ending June 2023, there were 19,256 road vehicle fires". That's all road vehicles, not just cars, and is more like 52 a day.

So who is right, the government or the Fire Service?

Note that fireservice.co.uk is not a site run by the UK Fire Service. It's a commercial website run by a one-person microbusiness based in Bolton.
I'm more inclined to believe gov.uk.

Does it really matter one jot?

The point I was making is every bit as valid whichever set of numbers someone chooses to believe. That point was that the media is very biased, and will splash a headline when an EV catches fire but virtually ignores dozens of conventional vehicle fires every day.

MWT · 18 December 2023 at 1:31PM

EssexHebridean said:

JSHarris said:

MeteredOut said:

_Sam_ said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Reed_Richards said:

It may be possible to fit a better aerial to the communications hub attached to your meter that would enable it to talk to your supplier.

It has been in the news recently that only 90% (IIRC) of smart meters communicate. I don't think any compensation is proposed.

I would not recommend getting an EV before your problem is sorted.

Even on standard rate running an efficient EV still has a lower cost per mile than an ICE vehicle.

I'm actually worried if this still is the case, given how insurance prices have jumped for EV cars compared to ICE cars. From what they say in the news the gap is enormous, if it can be compensated that would only be via low charging cost at home but if this too is taken out of equation the EV might work out more expensive than ICE (even much more expensive? Our insurance renewal is in 2024 and I'm dreading it)

Is that the same "news" that says EVs burst into flames every day? There's quite a simple way to find out how much car (including EV) insurance costs increased, and the click-bait news articles is not it...

If someone really wants to get scared about cars catching fire then it's worth looking at the hard data from the fire service. Nearly 300 cars catch fire in the UK every day, believe it or not, almost all of them are petrol or diesel powered: https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/

But as things stand right now, petrol or diesel cars still make up the vast majority of those in use on the UK roads, so that's hardly surprising, is it! Absolutely not saying clickbait and misinformation isn't out there, but countering it with meaningless statements probably isn't the most helpful.

This may be more helpful:

"AutoInsuranceEZ in the US analysed domestic statistics provided by the National Transport Safety Board, the Bureau of Transport Statistics and Vehicle Recalls from 2020 and reported that hybrid fires per 100,000 sales were most common ahead of petrol and diesel models. However, the report failed to split self-charging and plug-in hybrid cars.

EVs were third in the insurers list, with 25 fires per 100,000 sales, it said."

There are other sources around that show a similar picture, once you normalize for either the volume of sales or miles driven you do not find that an EV is at the top of the list.

QrizB · 18 December 2023 at 1:47PM

JSHarris said:

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

MeteredOut said:

Is that the same "news" that says EVs burst into flames every day? There's quite a simple way to find out how much car (including EV) insurance costs increased, and the click-bait news articles is not it...

If someone really wants to get scared about cars catching fire then it's worth looking at the hard data from the fire service. Nearly 300 cars catch fire in the UK every day, believe it or not, almost all of them are petrol or diesel powered: https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/

Believe it or not? I choose not to believe it.
From the official .gov.uk statistics, "in the year ending June 2023, there were 19,256 road vehicle fires". That's all road vehicles, not just cars, and is more like 52 a day.

So who is right, the government or the Fire Service?

Note that fireservice.co.uk is not a site run by the UK Fire Service. It's a commercial website run by a one-person microbusiness based in Bolton.
I'm more inclined to believe gov.uk.

Does it really matter one jot?

I can't speak for you, or for anyone else reading this thread, but accuracy matters to me. Confirming sources matters too.

JSHarris · 18 December 2023 at 1:56PM

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

MeteredOut said:

Is that the same "news" that says EVs burst into flames every day? There's quite a simple way to find out how much car (including EV) insurance costs increased, and the click-bait news articles is not it...

If someone really wants to get scared about cars catching fire then it's worth looking at the hard data from the fire service. Nearly 300 cars catch fire in the UK every day, believe it or not, almost all of them are petrol or diesel powered: https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/

Believe it or not? I choose not to believe it.
From the official .gov.uk statistics, "in the year ending June 2023, there were 19,256 road vehicle fires". That's all road vehicles, not just cars, and is more like 52 a day.

So who is right, the government or the Fire Service?

Note that fireservice.co.uk is not a site run by the UK Fire Service. It's a commercial website run by a one-person microbusiness based in Bolton.
I'm more inclined to believe gov.uk.

Does it really matter one jot?

I can't speak for you, or for anyone else reading this thread, but accuracy matters to me. Confirming sources matters too.

But does the difference between 52 vehicles a day catching fire and ~300 vehicles a day catching fire change the point I was making about media bias? You seem intent on ignoring that point for some reason.

JSHarris · 18 December 2023 at 4:46PM

I've been driving for close to 50 years and know of one car that caught fire, a Reliant Scimitar. I owned it for a time and sold it to a friend. He was driving it with his family one day when smoke started coming through the dashboard. By the time he'd pulled over the whole front of the car was ablaze and he only just managed to get his children out of the (rather cramped) back seats. Fault was traced to a loose brass pipe that was cast-in to the carburettor. This had leaked fuel into the V between the cylinder banks then heat or a stray spark set it alight. The car was written off. There was also the infamous Vauxhall Zafira that would catch fire if you looked at it the wrong way (took a couple of hundred fires for Vauxhall to issue a recall, IIRC)

I've been driving an EV for more than a decade now. I've been involved with EV forums all that time and have never heard of an EV belonging to any member having caught fire. I know it does happen, but the data show that this is something less likely than for a petrol or diesel car. Charging at home is at such a low power that the risk from the car systems is minimal. My car charges at about 32A at 230VAC at home, but when charging when out and about it typically draws 150A to 200A at 400VDC. If it can safely charge at that sort of power without warming up then I'm not at all worried about home charging.

There is a potential fire risk with home charge point installations, there are a lot of positively dangerous installations around, especially those dating back before the change in the wiring regulations five years ago. I've seen some horrific installations, almost all done when there was a government grant available, which resulted in the usual dodgy companies cashing in. Not helped by the fact that many homeowners ignore the requirement for periodic electrical installation inspections, despite it being a requirement to plaster stickers reminding them of the need to do this on or near CUs for many years

MWT · 18 December 2023 at 4:58PM

JSHarris said:

There is a potential fire risk with home charge point installations, there are a lot of positively dangerous installations around, especially those dating back before the change in the wiring regulations five years ago. I've seen some horrific installations, almost all done when there was a government grant available, which resulted in the usual dodgy companies cashing in. Not helped by the fact that many homeowners ignore the requirement for periodic electrical installation inspections, despite it being a requirement to plaster stickers reminding them of the need to do this on or near CUs for many years

Indeed, the real risks are mostly in the poorly executed wiring by less than ideally qualified installers, not in the vehicles, and you'll see house fires resulting from similar poorly wired extensions with heating loads on them etc.

We've seen a lot of poorly executed immersion heater installations on here over the years...

... wired to 3-pin plug so they can use a cheap mechanical timer and similar...

JSHarris · 18 December 2023 at 5:12PM

MWT said:

JSHarris said:

There is a potential fire risk with home charge point installations, there are a lot of positively dangerous installations around, especially those dating back before the change in the wiring regulations five years ago. I've seen some horrific installations, almost all done when there was a government grant available, which resulted in the usual dodgy companies cashing in. Not helped by the fact that many homeowners ignore the requirement for periodic electrical installation inspections, despite it being a requirement to plaster stickers reminding them of the need to do this on or near CUs for many years

Indeed, the real risks are mostly in the poorly executed wiring by less than ideally qualified installers, not in the vehicles, and you'll see house fires resulting from similar poorly wired extensions with heating loads on them etc.
We've seen a lot of poorly executed immersion heater installations on here over the years...
... wired to 3-pin plug so they can use a cheap mechanical timer and similar...

Years ago someone posted a poll on a home improvement forum asking people when they last had their home electrical installation inspected. From what I remember the majority didn't even know they were supposed to do this at least every 10 years (5 years for solar installations and a few other higher risk appliances, like hot tubs, EV charge points etc). Any house wired in the last few decades should have an inspection reminded sticker either on the CU or near it, if that installation was done by a competent electrician. This sticker should give the inspection date and may also give the date that the next inspection is due.

Not sure what the going rate for an inspection is now, but it would be rare for one to take more than a day, so perhaps £200 to £300. Seems a small price to pay for the peace of mind, especially as it was rare for me to do one and not find some defects, especially when "DIY Joe" had been tinkering . . .

MWT · 18 December 2023 at 5:58PM

JSHarris said:

Not sure what the going rate for an inspection is now, but it would be rare for one to take more than a day, so perhaps £200 to £300. Seems a small price to pay for the peace of mind, especially as it was rare for me to do one and not find some defects, especially when "DIY Joe" had been tinkering . . .

We did this 2 years ago, it was well overdue (1986 build) but we did it as part of replacing the consumer unit to bring it up to current spec and prepare for Solar PV, battery storage and EV etc.

Happily the only thing we had to change was one bathroom light fixture, everything else was fine.

born_again · 18 December 2023 at 6:10PM

MattMattMattUK said:

MeteredOut said:

MattMattMattUK said:

_Sam_ said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Reed_Richards said:

It may be possible to fit a better aerial to the communications hub attached to your meter that would enable it to talk to your supplier.

It has been in the news recently that only 90% (IIRC) of smart meters communicate. I don't think any compensation is proposed.

I would not recommend getting an EV before your problem is sorted.

Even on standard rate running an efficient EV still has a lower cost per mile than an ICE vehicle.

I'm actually worried if this still is the case, given how insurance prices have jumped for EV cars compared to ICE cars. From what they say in the news the gap is enormous, if it can be compensated that would only be via low charging cost at home but if this too is taken out of equation the EV might work out more expensive than ICE (even much more expensive? Our insurance renewal is in 2024 and I'm dreading it)

In terms of fuel/energy costs, a Tesla hits around 4.1miles per kWh, based on standard pricing (27p per kWh) and accounting for charging losses then it costs around 6.9p per mile, which is equivalent to an MPG of 21 for a petrol car which would for an equivalent size EV car would be a bit low, especially compared to motorway driving (it beats city driving through), at EV rates (7.5p per kWh) then that drops to 1.875p per mile, which is equivalent to 76.8MPG. The TCO is also lower on EVs, servicing for is considerably cheaper, £195 per year for a Tesla, where as for an ICE car it will be £500-£1,000+, brakes last longer on EVs, 3-5 times longer based on current estimates, insurance is comparable in most instances.

These are great points. There's too many people who conflate "EV's don't work for me" (eg, because they don't have the ability to charge at home) with "EVs are just as expensive to run as ICE cars"

TCO for tyres over a period of time can be more expensive on EVs, due to the additional weight.

It very much depends on the EV and the way it is driven, more balanced weight distribution counters some of the additional weight and like for like vehicle size EVs are actually not much heavier. With tyre wear the difference is that most EV tyres actually start with lower tread depth, the same with "Eco" tyres, because this reduces rolling resistance by around 20% for a correctly inflated tyres and that can have a significant impact at lower speeds, or at higher speeds with EVs with good drag co-efficient (less so on the large, cumbersome SUV type EVs).