Smart Meters and EV charging

JSHarris

EssexHebridean said:

JSHarris said:

MeteredOut said:

_Sam_ said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Reed_Richards said:

It may be possible to fit a better aerial to the communications hub attached to your meter that would enable it to talk to your supplier.

It has been in the news recently that only 90% (IIRC) of smart meters communicate.  I don't think any compensation is proposed.

I would not recommend getting an EV before your problem is sorted.  

Even on standard rate running an efficient EV still has a lower cost per mile than an ICE vehicle. 

I'm actually worried if this still is the case, given how insurance prices have jumped for EV cars compared to ICE cars. From what they say in the news the gap is enormous, if it can be compensated that would only be via low charging cost at home but if this too is taken out of equation the EV might work out more expensive than ICE (even much more expensive? Our insurance renewal is in 2024 and I'm dreading it)

Is that the same "news" that says EVs burst into flames every day? There's quite a simple way to find out how much car (including EV) insurance costs increased, and the click-bait news articles is not it...

If someone really wants to get scared about cars catching fire then it's worth looking at the hard data from the fire service.  Nearly 300 cars catch fire in the UK every day, believe it or not, almost all of them are petrol or diesel powered: https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/

But as things stand right now, petrol or diesel cars still make up the vast majority of those in use on the UK roads, so that's hardly surprising, is it! Absolutely not saying clickbait and misinformation isn't out there, but countering it with meaningless statements probably isn't the most helpful.

Not sure it's meaningless.  The facts are that if ONE EV catches fire then it makes headline news, but the ~300 conventional cars that catch fire every day barely rate a mention in the media at all.

It is a fact that EVs are less prone to catching fire than conventional cars.  The statistics show that the risk of an EV catching fire (based on data from 2010 to 2020) is about 0.0012%.  The risk of a petrol or diesel car catching fire is about 0.1%.

MattMattMattUK

_Sam_ said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Reed_Richards said:

It may be possible to fit a better aerial to the communications hub attached to your meter that would enable it to talk to your supplier.

It has been in the news recently that only 90% (IIRC) of smart meters communicate.  I don't think any compensation is proposed.

I would not recommend getting an EV before your problem is sorted.  

Even on standard rate running an efficient EV still has a lower cost per mile than an ICE vehicle. 

I'm actually worried if this still is the case, given how insurance prices have jumped for EV cars compared to ICE cars. From what they say in the news the gap is enormous, if it can be compensated that would only be via low charging cost at home but if this too is taken out of equation the EV might work out more expensive than ICE (even much more expensive? Our insurance renewal is in 2024 and I'm dreading it)

In terms of fuel/energy costs, a Tesla hits around 4.1miles per kWh, based on standard pricing (27p per kWh) and accounting for charging losses then it costs around 6.9p per mile, which is equivalent to an MPG of 21 for a petrol car which would for an equivalent size EV car would be a bit low, especially compared to motorway driving (it beats city driving through), at EV rates (7.5p per kWh) then that drops to 1.875p per mile, which is equivalent to 76.8MPG. The TCO is also lower on EVs, servicing for is considerably cheaper, £195 per year for a Tesla, where as for an ICE car it will be £500-£1,000+, brakes last longer on EVs, 3-5 times longer based on current estimates, insurance is comparable in most instances. 

MattMattMattUK

EssexHebridean said:

JSHarris said:

MeteredOut said:

_Sam_ said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Reed_Richards said:

It may be possible to fit a better aerial to the communications hub attached to your meter that would enable it to talk to your supplier.

It has been in the news recently that only 90% (IIRC) of smart meters communicate.  I don't think any compensation is proposed.

I would not recommend getting an EV before your problem is sorted.  

Even on standard rate running an efficient EV still has a lower cost per mile than an ICE vehicle. 

I'm actually worried if this still is the case, given how insurance prices have jumped for EV cars compared to ICE cars. From what they say in the news the gap is enormous, if it can be compensated that would only be via low charging cost at home but if this too is taken out of equation the EV might work out more expensive than ICE (even much more expensive? Our insurance renewal is in 2024 and I'm dreading it)

Is that the same "news" that says EVs burst into flames every day? There's quite a simple way to find out how much car (including EV) insurance costs increased, and the click-bait news articles is not it...

If someone really wants to get scared about cars catching fire then it's worth looking at the hard data from the fire service.  Nearly 300 cars catch fire in the UK every day, believe it or not, almost all of them are petrol or diesel powered: https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/

But as things stand right now, petrol or diesel cars still make up the vast majority of those in use on the UK roads, so that's hardly surprising, is it! Absolutely not saying clickbait and misinformation isn't out there, but countering it with meaningless statements probably isn't the most helpful.

Current stats, adjusted for vehicle age (there are not 20 year old EVs on the road) indicate that ICSs are around 20-80 times more likely to catch fire than an EV depending on model. For EVs there figure is 18 fires per 100k vehicles, for ICE in 2022 (in the USA) the figure was 1,380 fires per 100k ICE vehicles. 

One only has to look at the papers which choose to run multiple stories about an EV catching fire, but never mention ICE vehicles catching fire (and initially blamed the Luton Airport Car Park fire on an EV, despite it being a diesel), they are the same ones that regularly publish articles that show we do not need to do anything about climate change, that solar panels are a waste of money, that Brexit was a good idea etc. 

JSHarris

@MattMattMattUK

Your post highlights a real issue when comparing the running cost of an EV with that of a conventional car, the massive variation in "fuel" price.  Someone that wants to show EVs in a bad light can choose to use the very high electricity prices used at many rapid chargers (often well over 50p/kWh).  Someone that wants to show the low running costs of EVs can choose to use a very low electricity price (so far this year the average cost of charging our car has been about 6.5p/kWh, for example).

This is very different to the range of prices for diesel or petrol, around a 10 to 1 ratio between cheapest and most expensive for electricity to charge an EV, versus something like a 1.3 to 1 ratio for the variation in petrol or diesel cost.  In general terms, long trips in an EV tend to be expensive, because of the high cost at rapid chargers.  Short trips, where an owner has home charging, tend to be much cheaper.

MeteredOut

MattMattMattUK said:

_Sam_ said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Reed_Richards said:

It may be possible to fit a better aerial to the communications hub attached to your meter that would enable it to talk to your supplier.

It has been in the news recently that only 90% (IIRC) of smart meters communicate.  I don't think any compensation is proposed.

I would not recommend getting an EV before your problem is sorted.  

Even on standard rate running an efficient EV still has a lower cost per mile than an ICE vehicle. 

I'm actually worried if this still is the case, given how insurance prices have jumped for EV cars compared to ICE cars. From what they say in the news the gap is enormous, if it can be compensated that would only be via low charging cost at home but if this too is taken out of equation the EV might work out more expensive than ICE (even much more expensive? Our insurance renewal is in 2024 and I'm dreading it)

In terms of fuel/energy costs, a Tesla hits around 4.1miles per kWh, based on standard pricing (27p per kWh) and accounting for charging losses then it costs around 6.9p per mile, which is equivalent to an MPG of 21 for a petrol car which would for an equivalent size EV car would be a bit low, especially compared to motorway driving (it beats city driving through), at EV rates (7.5p per kWh) then that drops to 1.875p per mile, which is equivalent to 76.8MPG. The TCO is also lower on EVs, servicing for is considerably cheaper, £195 per year for a Tesla, where as for an ICE car it will be £500-£1,000+, brakes last longer on EVs, 3-5 times longer based on current estimates, insurance is comparable in most instances. 

These are great points. There's too many people who conflate "EV's don't work for me" (eg, because they don't have the ability to charge at home) with "EVs are just as expensive to run as ICE cars"

TCO for tyres over a period of time can be more expensive on EVs, due to the additional weight.

QrizB

JSHarris said:

MeteredOut said:

Is that the same "news" that says EVs burst into flames every day? There's quite a simple way to find out how much car (including EV) insurance costs increased, and the click-bait news articles is not it...

If someone really wants to get scared about cars catching fire then it's worth looking at the hard data from the fire service.  Nearly 300 cars catch fire in the UK every day, believe it or not, almost all of them are petrol or diesel powered: https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/

Believe it or not? I choose not to believe it.

From the official .gov.uk statistics, "in the year ending June 2023, there were 19,256 road vehicle fires". That's all road vehicles, not just cars, and is more like 52 a day.

JSHarris

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

MeteredOut said:

Is that the same "news" that says EVs burst into flames every day? There's quite a simple way to find out how much car (including EV) insurance costs increased, and the click-bait news articles is not it...

If someone really wants to get scared about cars catching fire then it's worth looking at the hard data from the fire service.  Nearly 300 cars catch fire in the UK every day, believe it or not, almost all of them are petrol or diesel powered: https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/

Believe it or not? I choose not to believe it.

From the official .gov.uk statistics, "in the year ending June 2023, there were 19,256 road vehicle fires". That's all road vehicles, not just cars, and is more like 52 a day.

So who is right, the government or the Fire Service?  The point I was making is valid either way.  One EV fire makes the news, dozens of conventional vehicle fires every day do not.  The media presents an extremely distorted image of vehicle fires (and many other things) because distorting reality earns them revenue.

MeteredOut

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

MeteredOut said:

Is that the same "news" that says EVs burst into flames every day? There's quite a simple way to find out how much car (including EV) insurance costs increased, and the click-bait news articles is not it...

If someone really wants to get scared about cars catching fire then it's worth looking at the hard data from the fire service.  Nearly 300 cars catch fire in the UK every day, believe it or not, almost all of them are petrol or diesel powered: https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/

Believe it or not? I choose not to believe it.

From the official .gov.uk statistics, "in the year ending June 2023, there were 19,256 road vehicle fires". That's all road vehicles, not just cars, and is more like 52 a day.

That's England only, whereas the one above states UK, but that obviously does not account for the wide discrepancy. Funny how the gov website states the figures from the FRS, but the fire service web site is so different.

I suspect they're using different criteria.

MattMattMattUK

MeteredOut said:

MattMattMattUK said:

_Sam_ said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Reed_Richards said:

It may be possible to fit a better aerial to the communications hub attached to your meter that would enable it to talk to your supplier.

It has been in the news recently that only 90% (IIRC) of smart meters communicate.  I don't think any compensation is proposed.

I would not recommend getting an EV before your problem is sorted.  

Even on standard rate running an efficient EV still has a lower cost per mile than an ICE vehicle. 

I'm actually worried if this still is the case, given how insurance prices have jumped for EV cars compared to ICE cars. From what they say in the news the gap is enormous, if it can be compensated that would only be via low charging cost at home but if this too is taken out of equation the EV might work out more expensive than ICE (even much more expensive? Our insurance renewal is in 2024 and I'm dreading it)

In terms of fuel/energy costs, a Tesla hits around 4.1miles per kWh, based on standard pricing (27p per kWh) and accounting for charging losses then it costs around 6.9p per mile, which is equivalent to an MPG of 21 for a petrol car which would for an equivalent size EV car would be a bit low, especially compared to motorway driving (it beats city driving through), at EV rates (7.5p per kWh) then that drops to 1.875p per mile, which is equivalent to 76.8MPG. The TCO is also lower on EVs, servicing for is considerably cheaper, £195 per year for a Tesla, where as for an ICE car it will be £500-£1,000+, brakes last longer on EVs, 3-5 times longer based on current estimates, insurance is comparable in most instances. 

These are great points. There's too many people who conflate "EV's don't work for me" (eg, because they don't have the ability to charge at home) with "EVs are just as expensive to run as ICE cars"

TCO for tyres over a period of time can be more expensive on EVs, due to the additional weight.

It very much depends on the EV and the way it is driven, more balanced weight distribution counters some of the additional weight and like for like vehicle size EVs are actually not much heavier. With tyre wear the difference is that most EV tyres actually start with lower tread depth, the same with "Eco" tyres, because this reduces rolling resistance by around 20% for a correctly inflated tyres and that can have a significant impact at lower speeds, or at higher speeds with EVs with good drag co-efficient (less so on the large, cumbersome SUV type EVs).

QrizB

JSHarris said:

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

MeteredOut said:

Is that the same "news" that says EVs burst into flames every day? There's quite a simple way to find out how much car (including EV) insurance costs increased, and the click-bait news articles is not it...

If someone really wants to get scared about cars catching fire then it's worth looking at the hard data from the fire service.  Nearly 300 cars catch fire in the UK every day, believe it or not, almost all of them are petrol or diesel powered: https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/

Believe it or not? I choose not to believe it.

From the official .gov.uk statistics, "in the year ending June 2023, there were 19,256 road vehicle fires". That's all road vehicles, not just cars, and is more like 52 a day.

So who is right, the government or the Fire Service?

Note that fireservice.co.uk is not a site run by the UK Fire Service. It's a commercial website run by a one-person microbusiness based in Bolton.

I'm more inclined to believe gov.uk.