Who is my contract with? Retailer or their "self employed" expert fitting teams

Patricia1608

I am in the process of having a kitchen installed which has run into problems with the installation. I've contacted the company who advertise "Your Dream Kitchen - Planned, Designed, Installed". They supplied all the kitchen units and appliances. The kitchen fitter has sent me a separate invoice and the contract from the kitchen company states on the bottom "client to pay fitter direct" and mentions the sum of "x" to be paid. At no stage was I notified that I would be potentially engaging in a "separate contract". No discussions have taken place, no contract has been signed etc with the fitter etc. 

I'm confused as I am of the opinion that my contract is with the kitchen company. At no stage did I engage the services of the kitchen fitter or their electricians independently of the company. The electrical work is unsafe as there is no protective bonding. The electrician walked off site when I queried the cost of additional works and he refused to say what these were for. It appears that the gas cooker/gas hob have been disconnected by someone who is potentially unqualified/certified and the company has so far failed to provide details of their certification bodies.

The company were going to replace the panels that had been cut or alternatively seal them. My question is who is my contract with? 

Why would a kitchen company agree to change the panels but now saying it's nothing to do with them?

Any queries have been raised directly with the kitchen company and not fitters/electricians

The company are advertising "self employed" trades on their own website and under their logo

The company's contract, with their logo states to pay X amount direct to fitter

Other parts of their website refer to "our staff" when installing integrated appliances.

Surely, this is quite contradictory and there must be a very definitive clear divide between a company and self employed traders, especially if a potential legal issue arises.

I have now been left with no functioning kitchen since early November 2023

Any help would be appreciated.

DullGreyGuy

You need to read the contract... who you pay is broadly irrelevant when you have a written contract. 

As to why do companies agree to do a small thing and then pushback when it becomes a bigger thing? Time -v- Cost... it costs staff time to deal with complaints and fighting with customers, if its a minor thing its often better to save the fighting time, do the job on a without prejudice basis and have a happier customer. Clearly there gets a point when the cost of the action outweighs the likely cost of saying "no" and so the approach switches. 

Patricia1608

There is nothing in the contract to corroborate that as a customer I am entering or dealing with a separate contract at all. Contract covers the normal definitions, contract, price, goods, delivery, payment, title to goods, general. Under "Price" it states "The goods supplied will be paid for by the customer at the price agreed and documented overleaf" - this is where it gives a cost for the units, appliances and a separate cost for the kitchen fitter stating "client to pay". Incidentally on the same contract it states "Preparation Work - D (ie fitter) to do. "Clients plaster to do: 3 day work starts ..." "Installation Date: D (ie fitter) 20/11/23"

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

This place?

https://mydreamkitchen.co.uk/

Aylesbury_Duck

Patricia1608 said:

There is nothing in the contract to corroborate that as a customer I am entering or dealing with a separate contract at all. Contract covers the normal definitions, contract, price, goods, delivery, payment, title to goods, general. Under "Price" it states "The goods supplied will be paid for by the customer at the price agreed and documented overleaf" - this is where it gives a cost for the units, appliances and a separate cost for the kitchen fitter stating "client to pay". Incidentally on the same contract it states "Preparation Work - D (ie fitter) to do. "Clients plaster to do: 3 day work starts ..." "Installation Date: D (ie fitter) 20/11/23"

Doesn't that part indicate it's a separate contract?  If your contract is "all-in" with the retailer, you'd be paying them the whole sum, including fitting.  There doesn't need to be a separate written, signed contract for a contract to exist, you effectively agreed to the contract with the fitter when placing the order and accepting you'd be paying the fitter separately.  You've also allowed the fitter and electrician to work in your house, which implies acceptance of a contract.  Why do that if you didn't think you had a contract with them and you hadn't paid for their services?  I'm playing devil's advocate because these are the challenges you face.

I don't like the set-up, I've seen it before with carpet companies and it makes for messy situations when problems occur, as you're discovering.   

Patricia1608

This is what I'm trying to figure out. The company refer to "our hand picked team of experts ..." and refer to "our staff". It's only since asking for details of their certification bodies after their electrician refused to state why I was being charged nearly £300 for "additional works" and walked off site. I got my own independent electrician who told me that the works that have been done show no evidence of bonding, a safety certificate can't be issued as the main board needs to be updated. I contacted one of the certified bodies who told me that rewiring and a new circuit are notifiable works. I've written at least two emails asking for their certification bodies, as advised by Trading Standards and have heard nothing. Either the kitchen fitter or electricians disconnected my gas oven/gas hob so again I asked for their certifications. 

DullGreyGuy

Patricia1608 said:

There is nothing in the contract to corroborate that as a customer I am entering or dealing with a separate contract at all. Contract covers the normal definitions, contract, price, goods, delivery, payment, title to goods, general. Under "Price" it states "The goods supplied will be paid for by the customer at the price agreed and documented overleaf" - this is where it gives a cost for the units, appliances and a separate cost for the kitchen fitter stating "client to pay". Incidentally on the same contract it states "Preparation Work - D (ie fitter) to do. "Clients plaster to do: 3 day work starts ..." "Installation Date: D (ie fitter) 20/11/23"

But what does it state what the contract is for? The supply of a kitchen? The supply and fitting of a kitchen? How does it define the price?

Patricia1608 said:

This is what I'm trying to figure out. The company refer to "our hand picked team of experts ..." and refer to "our staff". 

I think you are trying to read too much into the wording, our Chief Actuaries' report to the board states "our project team are" but the team is made up of 6 members of staff and 3 contractors/consultants. We'll shortly be joined by consultants from another firm but it will remain "our project team".  

If you look at the difference between employees and staff in the Cambridge dictionary the former is explicitly the people employed by a company whereas "staff" is people who work for a company and not explicitly only employees so could include contractors etc. 

In many companies there is a blend, as per my own project team, some employees and some non-employees and who's used on what job depends on skills, availability, demand etc. 

Aylesbury_Duck

Patricia1608 said:

This is what I'm trying to figure out. The company refer to "our hand picked team of experts ..." and refer to "our staff". It's only since asking for details of their certification bodies after their electrician refused to state why I was being charged nearly £300 for "additional works" and walked off site. I got my own independent electrician who told me that the works that have been done show no evidence of bonding, a safety certificate can't be issued as the main board needs to be updated. I contacted one of the certified bodies who told me that rewiring and a new circuit are notifiable works. I've written at least two emails asking for their certification bodies, as advised by Trading Standards and have heard nothing. Either the kitchen fitter or electricians disconnected my gas oven/gas hob so again I asked for their certifications. 

I agree with DullGreyGuy, this is a moot point.  What matters is what's in the contract (or not).  If all the retailer does is point you towards some "hand picked experts", the onus may be on you to check that you're happy to engage said experts.  If one or more of those trades has carried out unauthorised works, or works for which they're uncertified, it's likely your grievance is with them, rather than the retailer.

Do you have a name and address for the fitter?

Patricia1608

Under "Contract" it states:

"i) All orders accepted by the company shall be subject to the terms and conditions herein set out which shall supersede and prevail over any other terms or conditions pursuant to which the customer may support to place an order. Subject to sub-clause (ii) hereof these terms and conditions are the only terms and conditions upon which the company will accept an order for goods and by placing an order for goods the customer is deemed to have accepted these terms and conditions"

(ii) These terms and conditions can only be varied, waived or altered in any manner whatsoever by the owner of the company. Furthermore, any such variation, waiver or alteration of these terms and conditions is only valid if in wiring and signed by the owner of the company, or a nominated  official

(iii) The contract is governed by the laws of England

(iv) The English courts shall have exclusive jurisdiction in respect of any dispute arising out of connection (either directly or indirectly) with the contract.

Under "Price" it states:

i) The goods supplied will be paid for by the customer at the price agreed and documented overleaf

(ii) The company reserves the right to vary the price if any alterations, amendments or variations are requested subsequent to agreement of the price overleaf

(iii) All prices quoted are inclusive of VAT, which is charged at the rate applicable on the day of delivery"

There is nothing in the contract relating to installation even though they have clearly advertised "Design, Planning, Installation" 

I received an invoice directly from the fitter with his name and address on. Any queries or concerns I've dealt solely with the retailer. The fitter is trying to charge for electrical work he didn't carry out and for a week of works when he was not actually on site. At no stage when dealing with the retailer did they say that I should be dealing directly with the fitter and not them. This has only come about since requesting details of the certification bodies. 

Ideally I just need to know who is liable to I can send the relevant correspondence to them. They have made it practically impossible to give them another opportunity to put the job right due to their unprofessional and intimidating conduct towards me in my own home, shouting at me down the phone and threatening me with legal action. I've got myself in a right state as I suffer with stress, anxiety and depression and have literally broken down in front of them or on the phone to them. I am 60 years old and live alone. All I wanted was a new kitchen. It's only a small kitchen and was costing £10,500 so not cheap. I didn't think for one minute I would be dealing with such hostility and aggression. My house is like a building site with every room full of units, old & new appliances, worktops etc and having to wash dishes in the bath. I am forced to travel a total of 18 miles 3 - 4 times a week to wash my clothes and cook food in my daughter's home and had to borrow a microwave from my sister as the only method to heat food. 

I am deeply upset and can't seem to find the right answers without going via a solicitor which I can't afford. I'm a carer on minimum wage.

Sorry for the "saga" but this setup seems, from what I've read here, to be the norm and I can't understand why companies are allowed to operate like this.

Aylesbury_Duck

Patricia1608 said:

Under "Contract" it states:

"i) All orders accepted by the company shall be subject to the terms and conditions herein set out which shall supersede and prevail over any other terms or conditions pursuant to which the customer may support to place an order. Subject to sub-clause (ii) hereof these terms and conditions are the only terms and conditions upon which the company will accept an order for goods and by placing an order for goods the customer is deemed to have accepted these terms and conditions"

(ii) These terms and conditions can only be varied, waived or altered in any manner whatsoever by the owner of the company. Furthermore, any such variation, waiver or alteration of these terms and conditions is only valid if in wiring and signed by the owner of the company, or a nominated  official

(iii) The contract is governed by the laws of England

(iv) The English courts shall have exclusive jurisdiction in respect of any dispute arising out of connection (either directly or indirectly) with the contract.

Under "Price" it states:

i) The goods supplied will be paid for by the customer at the price agreed and documented overleaf

(ii) The company reserves the right to vary the price if any alterations, amendments or variations are requested subsequent to agreement of the price overleaf

(iii) All prices quoted are inclusive of VAT, which is charged at the rate applicable on the day of delivery"

There is nothing in the contract relating to installation even though they have clearly advertised "Design, Planning, Installation" 

I received an invoice directly from the fitter with his name and address on. Any queries or concerns I've dealt solely with the retailer. The fitter is trying to charge for electrical work he didn't carry out and for a week of works when he was not actually on site. At no stage when dealing with the retailer did they say that I should be dealing directly with the fitter and not them. This has only come about since requesting details of the certification bodies. 

Ideally I just need to know who is liable to I can send the relevant correspondence to them. They have made it practically impossible to give them another opportunity to put the job right due to their unprofessional and intimidating conduct towards me in my own home, shouting at me down the phone and threatening me with legal action. I've got myself in a right state as I suffer with stress, anxiety and depression and have literally broken down in front of them or on the phone to them. I am 60 years old and live alone. All I wanted was a new kitchen. It's only a small kitchen and was costing £10,500 so not cheap. I didn't think for one minute I would be dealing with such hostility and aggression. My house is like a building site with every room full of units, old & new appliances, worktops etc and having to wash dishes in the bath. I am forced to travel a total of 18 miles 3 - 4 times a week to wash my clothes and cook food in my daughter's home and had to borrow a microwave from my sister as the only method to heat food. 

I am deeply upset and can't seem to find the right answers without going via a solicitor which I can't afford. I'm a carer on minimum wage.

Sorry for the "saga" but this setup seems, from what I've read here, to be the norm and I can't understand why companies are allowed to operate like this.

The first two bold sections pretty much confirm you have two separate contracts, so it's the fitter to whom you send the correspondence.

It sounds like you've paid for work which is unfinished, and owe for other work which is needed.  I suggest you get another kitchen fitter to come and give you an estimate of what it would cost to complete the job, then come back here for advice.  It'll probably end up with you asking the original fitter to complete what's paid for and provide a proper breakdown for what's needed, which you can compare with the independent fitter's opinion.  Small claims court might be the ultimate route if you are out of pocket and get no joy from the original fitter.  You will probably end up paying another fitter to complete the job.

Patricia1608

I'm really struggling to get anyone to come out. I've tried several independent fitters, building firms etc and only one came out but only to give his opinion. He doesn't want to be identified. Others I've tried have not responded, not turned up or cancelled. I've just had another cancel as he was due tomorrow. Of those who did respond they can't fit me in until January or March, not even to quote. I'm stuck in limbo with no kitchen at all.  I have a daughter/grandchildren with SEN and this is too much to deal with.