British Gas credit use (cost + debt), had enough for 4 years so considering court action.

tifo

On 14 March 2023 Chief Exec of British Gas gave oral evidence to the Committee review into forced prepayment meters, transcript here https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/12824/html/ and it helps me in my claim.

The oral evidence from MD of Arvato is here https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/12823/html/ and it also helps.

There's statements they make for the process of forcefully (by warrant) fitting prepayment meters which didn't happen in my case, esp assessments on vulnerability which they say are carried out before the warrant is applied for. Also statements about what each company does and who authorises what.

BikingBud

Are you complaining about having a pre-payment meter imposed upon you or the apparent inconsistency in the payments being deducted from your credit account.

They are entirely separate issues and to ensure you get a fair hearing both would need different discussion and supporting evidence.

In regard to the debits from your account, aside from the fact that many prefer to pay via regular DD and thereby budget over the year, irregular consumption and therefore irregular payments would be the norm.

Consider 2 situations: 

• You pay your local garage £100 per month as that is what you have estimated for the fuel you will use during the year. At the end of the year you have travelled less than you expected and only use £1075 of fuel and you have a credit of £125 - Most people operate their utilities in this manner.
• You pay your local garage every time you fill the tank, although you might have a budget estimate to ensure you can cover this cost you find some months you do more miles and some months fewer miles - heating on more or less. Also the type of driving, long distance motorway or local commute will affect the consumption rate, for the heating this will be colder or warmer weather. These are the factors that affect consumption. I wouldn't expect the £45 of fuel to get me to Edinburgh and back in my car, therefore why would I expect an amount on my meter account to last when it is particularly cold weather for an extended number of days. There will also be price changes as well to consider. All of these factors will directly change the rate your credit is being consumed.

You have spent many pages claiming BG are taking irregular payments but have not provided any real consumption data or meter readings to enable the determination that credit was being taken without due cause. Only accurate consumption data will enable verification.

Not with British gas but quite surprised that there is no access to or record of your account on line.

You mentioned that you have grown up children at home, I won't enter into the whys and wherefore about their contribution to costs but they should be able to read meters and ensure you are fully aware of your consumption, especially as some of it is their consumption and whilst they may have other priorities for their funds they can own what gas they use and ensure they are efficient. 

tifo

BikingBud said:

Are you complaining about having a pre-payment meter imposed upon you or the apparent inconsistency in the payments being deducted from your credit account.

They are entirely separate issues and to ensure you get a fair hearing both would need different discussion and supporting evidence.

In regard to the debits from your account, aside from the fact that many prefer to pay via regular DD and thereby budget over the year, irregular consumption and therefore irregular payments would be the norm.

"Are you complaining about having a pre-payment meter imposed upon you or the apparent inconsistency in the payments being deducted from your credit account .... They are entirely separate issues and to ensure you get a fair hearing both would need different discussion and supporting evidence".

I'm complaining about having the prepayment meter imposed on me, and i now know they didn't carry out the procedures they're meant to, and after that i've the issue of inconsistent credit deductions from the meter but more of an issue since March 2021 with the smart meter, before that the dumb meter would take a debt payment from every top up, sometimes much more than the agreed £3.70 or £3.75 a week. Then there's the management of the meter which, due to my conditions I find difficult but is exacerbated by British Gas's online account/app which does not show any credit or it is not updated for days or weeks. From what i know and knew, I fall into the vulnerability category and the prepayment meter should not have been fitted, in fact the warrant should have been withdrawn as, from what their Chairman and MD of Arvato say, an assessment is carried out before the application is made. So they're all issues with the prepayment meter and the processes before fitting it.

"In regard to the debits from your account, aside from the fact that many prefer to pay via regular DD and thereby budget over the year, irregular consumption and therefore irregular payments would be the norm".

This is a prepayment meter, money has to be put on it before gas can be used otherwise it cuts off. There is no DD or bill etc.

BikingBud

tifo said:

BikingBud said:

Are you complaining about having a pre-payment meter imposed upon you or the apparent inconsistency in the payments being deducted from your credit account.

They are entirely separate issues and to ensure you get a fair hearing both would need different discussion and supporting evidence.

In regard to the debits from your account, aside from the fact that many prefer to pay via regular DD and thereby budget over the year, irregular consumption and therefore irregular payments would be the norm.

"Are you complaining about having a pre-payment meter imposed upon you or the apparent inconsistency in the payments being deducted from your credit account .... They are entirely separate issues and to ensure you get a fair hearing both would need different discussion and supporting evidence".

I'm complaining about having the prepayment meter imposed on me, and i now know they didn't carry out the procedures they're meant to, and after that i've the issue of inconsistent credit deductions from the meter but more of an issue since March 2021 with the smart meter, before that the dumb meter would take a debt payment from every top up, sometimes much more than the agreed £3.70 or £3.75 a week. Then there's the management of the meter which, due to my conditions I find difficult but is exacerbated by British Gas's online account/app which does not show any credit or it is not updated for days or weeks. From what i know and knew, I fall into the vulnerability category and the prepayment meter should not have been fitted, in fact the warrant should have been withdrawn as, from what their Chairman and MD of Arvato say, an assessment is carried out before the application is made. So they're all issues with the prepayment meter and the processes before fitting it.

"In regard to the debits from your account, aside from the fact that many prefer to pay via regular DD and thereby budget over the year, irregular consumption and therefore irregular payments would be the norm".

This is a prepayment meter, money has to be put on it before gas can be used otherwise it cuts off. There is no DD or bill etc.

So yes you have 2 separate points of contention but you keep mixing them together. You need to understand the boundaries of the 2 problems and be able to argue these independently.

I understand that you are on a pre-payment meter but my offering was to try and provide a route by which you could capture and assess your consumption hence your financial liability. Inconsistent deduction from credit can only be verified if the consumption and the variables that lead to differing consumption are captured and analysed. Someone did in an earlier post, request you provide the data from the differing registers, this would unlock some of your problems, but I have not yet seen this occur.

Please note actual consumption is not the same as what you pay, via any method, it should be closely related but you could over pay or underpay, pay early or pay late, whichever method you pay by this is only an interim payment until the account is reconciled.

It is beneficial to keep track of your consumption so that when reconciliation occurs you know if you are likely to be up or down and perhaps most importantly how far down you might be as this could lead the supplier to take action to recover the debt. This might be sufficient grounds for installation of the pre-payment meter see here, check and if you feel it has not been done correctly, build your case: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/check-energy-suppliers-can-install-prepayment-meters-without-household-permission

Before installing a prepayment meter without permission
Last year, we asked that installing prepayment meters without a household’s permission for paying back debt be paused. Before suppliers can restart this type of installation, we check how they installed them in the past. These checks are part of our review called the ‘Market Compliance review’.

If we have concerns about how prepayment meters have been installed in the past, we will review this behaviour and take action. This could be enforcement action such as large fines.

The supplier must put things right before they can restart.

See also: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/prepayment-meters-consumer-guidance

If you cannot afford to top up your meter
You should contact your supplier straight away if you cannot afford to top up your meter. Our rules mean that they must offer support. This includes extra support credit if you’re in a vulnerable situation and have few options to pay and additional support credit while you work out ways to pay.

You’ll need to pay back the credit from your supplier when you next top up. Suppliers must work with you to agree on a payment plan you can afford.

You didn't confirm how your adult children are assisting with the problem that you have been complaining about for 4 years, not only financially assisting but also taking responsibility to reduce your angst, perhaps give them the task of capturing the readings and validating the data and then reconciling with your core payments and debt reduction?

tifo

BikingBud said:

So yes you have 2 separate points of contention but you keep mixing them together. You need to understand the boundaries of the 2 problems and be able to argue these independently.

I understand that you are on a pre-payment meter but my offering was to try and provide a route by which you could capture and assess your consumption hence your financial liability. Inconsistent deduction from credit can only be verified if the consumption and the variables that lead to differing consumption are captured and analysed. Someone did in an earlier post, request you provide the data from the differing registers, this would unlock some of your problems, but I have not yet seen this occur.

Please note actual consumption is not the same as what you pay, via any method, it should be closely related but you could over pay or underpay, pay early or pay late, whichever method you pay by this is only an interim payment until the account is reconciled.

It is beneficial to keep track of your consumption so that when reconciliation occurs you know if you are likely to be up or down and perhaps most importantly how far down you might be as this could lead the supplier to take action to recover the debt. This might be sufficient grounds for installation of the pre-payment meter see here, check and if you feel it has not been done correctly, build your case: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/check-energy-suppliers-can-install-prepayment-meters-without-household-permission

Before installing a prepayment meter without permission
Last year, we asked that installing prepayment meters without a household’s permission for paying back debt be paused. Before suppliers can restart this type of installation, we check how they installed them in the past. These checks are part of our review called the ‘Market Compliance review’.

If we have concerns about how prepayment meters have been installed in the past, we will review this behaviour and take action. This could be enforcement action such as large fines.

The supplier must put things right before they can restart.

See also: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/prepayment-meters-consumer-guidance

If you cannot afford to top up your meter
You should contact your supplier straight away if you cannot afford to top up your meter. Our rules mean that they must offer support. This includes extra support credit if you’re in a vulnerable situation and have few options to pay and additional support credit while you work out ways to pay.

You’ll need to pay back the credit from your supplier when you next top up. Suppliers must work with you to agree on a payment plan you can afford.

You didn't confirm how your adult children are assisting with the problem that you have been complaining about for 4 years, not only financially assisting but also taking responsibility to reduce your angst, perhaps give them the task of capturing the readings and validating the data and then reconciling with your core payments and debt reduction?

"request you provide the data from the differing registers, this would unlock some of your problems, but I have not yet seen this occur".

I don't know what you mean by differing registers.

 "Please note actual consumption is not the same as what you pay, via any method, it should be closely related but you could over pay or underpay, pay early or pay late, whichever method you pay by this is only an interim payment until the account is reconciled".

I don't think this applies to prepayment meters. Credit is taken when gas is used, it's not possible to pay late and there is no reconciling as with billed credit meters. I may be wrong but that's my understanding of prepayment meters.

"It is beneficial to keep track of your consumption so that when reconciliation occurs you know if you are likely to be up or down and perhaps most importantly how far down you might be as this could lead the supplier to take action to recover the debt. This might be sufficient grounds for installation of the pre-payment meter".

This does not apply to me, i'm already on a prepayment meter for 4 years which is the issue here. Action was taken 4 years ago. Hence the ofgem link for restarting prepayment meter fitting also doesn't apply to me.

"perhaps give them the task of capturing the readings and validating the data and then reconciling with your core payments and debt reduction".

Yes, this is an option.

But ultimately it's all in my name and my issues.

tifo

I've received my data from Arvato and there is only 1 screenshot of the account opening in May 2018 and closed a month later in June 2018.

The prepayment meter was fitted in January 2020 so the application was done in November 2019.

There is nothing in the BG and Arvato DSAR about the warrant process, assessments etc.

BikingBud

tifo said:

BikingBud said:

So yes you have 2 separate points of contention but you keep mixing them together. You need to understand the boundaries of the 2 problems and be able to argue these independently.

I understand that you are on a pre-payment meter but my offering was to try and provide a route by which you could capture and assess your consumption hence your financial liability. Inconsistent deduction from credit can only be verified if the consumption and the variables that lead to differing consumption are captured and analysed. Someone did in an earlier post, request you provide the data from the differing registers, this would unlock some of your problems, but I have not yet seen this occur.

Please note actual consumption is not the same as what you pay, via any method, it should be closely related but you could over pay or underpay, pay early or pay late, whichever method you pay by this is only an interim payment until the account is reconciled.

It is beneficial to keep track of your consumption so that when reconciliation occurs you know if you are likely to be up or down and perhaps most importantly how far down you might be as this could lead the supplier to take action to recover the debt. This might be sufficient grounds for installation of the pre-payment meter see here, check and if you feel it has not been done correctly, build your case: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/check-energy-suppliers-can-install-prepayment-meters-without-household-permission

Before installing a prepayment meter without permission
Last year, we asked that installing prepayment meters without a household’s permission for paying back debt be paused. Before suppliers can restart this type of installation, we check how they installed them in the past. These checks are part of our review called the ‘Market Compliance review’.

If we have concerns about how prepayment meters have been installed in the past, we will review this behaviour and take action. This could be enforcement action such as large fines.

The supplier must put things right before they can restart.

See also: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/prepayment-meters-consumer-guidance

If you cannot afford to top up your meter
You should contact your supplier straight away if you cannot afford to top up your meter. Our rules mean that they must offer support. This includes extra support credit if you’re in a vulnerable situation and have few options to pay and additional support credit while you work out ways to pay.

You’ll need to pay back the credit from your supplier when you next top up. Suppliers must work with you to agree on a payment plan you can afford.

You didn't confirm how your adult children are assisting with the problem that you have been complaining about for 4 years, not only financially assisting but also taking responsibility to reduce your angst, perhaps give them the task of capturing the readings and validating the data and then reconciling with your core payments and debt reduction?

"request you provide the data from the differing registers, this would unlock some of your problems, but I have not yet seen this occur".

I don't know what you mean by differing registers.

 "Please note actual consumption is not the same as what you pay, via any method, it should be closely related but you could over pay or underpay, pay early or pay late, whichever method you pay by this is only an interim payment until the account is reconciled".

I don't think this applies to prepayment meters. Credit is taken when gas is used, it's not possible to pay late and there is no reconciling as with billed credit meters. I may be wrong but that's my understanding of prepayment meters.

"It is beneficial to keep track of your consumption so that when reconciliation occurs you know if you are likely to be up or down and perhaps most importantly how far down you might be as this could lead the supplier to take action to recover the debt. This might be sufficient grounds for installation of the pre-payment meter".

This does not apply to me, i'm already on a prepayment meter for 4 years which is the issue here. Action was taken 4 years ago. Hence the ofgem link for restarting prepayment meter fitting also doesn't apply to me.

"perhaps give them the task of capturing the readings and validating the data and then reconciling with your core payments and debt reduction".

Yes, this is an option.

But ultimately it's all in my name and my issues.

Not much else to say then.

tifo

I've received some notes for from the field agents and the 'granted' warrant but I still don't know who the agents were working for (British Gas, Arvato or someone else), there are no letters or decision data within the 'warrant' data. As explained by both the MD of Arvato and CEO of British Gas the warrant process is long and a file is created which is passed back and forth before the prepayment meter is fitted. I've received none of this data.

Also, i'm still waiting for the breakdown of how they arrive at the current debt but I don't think they'll send it.

tifo

I'm told by BG there is no more data to send me, so that means no assessment before the meter change and no warrant application form, though they've sent me the granting of the warrant order.

I'm also told that they can't send me a breakdown of how my credit is being used for gas (inc standing charge) and debt. This leaves me in the same place as i've been, keep topping up and the meter will deduct what it wants. I started this thread because i can't carry on doing this. All they will tell me, again and again, is the weekly deduction for debt (£0.022 p/h) and the amount of debt (which is disputed due to it being higher than i think it should be).

This means from the current smart PAYG meter they can't tell me how much it uses for gas and how much to debt. They have no idea how much the previous non smart meter deducted for debt, said they just added the amount shown to the smart meter. They don't even mention the non smart meter until i say a lot of debt used to get deducted from it (from every top up which was several times a week).

They blame the hub for lack of data, and say it's also because i'm not with them for electricity, and that the prepayment meters have not updated to the 'new' system from last year. So the meter doesn't connect properly. This is now after years of telling me to keep trying the in home device, get closer to the meter (outside) etc.

And i'm to continue suffering as i am because BG can't run their systems properly?

Qyburn

tifo said:

This means from the current smart PAYG meter they can't tell me how much it uses for gas and how much to debt. 

Can you read the meter yourself to see how much gas is being used in cu.m or kWh?