UKCPM speculative invoice - notice to hirer now recieved (docs missing and other potential issues)

taffer87

Any advice is greatly appreciated on below:

VWFS are saying they can't transfer liability as UK CPM do not accept their letter and they can't share the lease agreement which UK CPM require. I have told VWFS I am fine with them sending the hire agreement if that is needed to transfer liability.

VWFS (lease company and RK) has received the attached notice to keeper. Lease company said in a letter to me that they can't transfer liability and instead I should deal with this directly and they have provided a third party authorisation letter. This is very odd as in the past they have transferred liability for both private invoices like this and also council PCNs. They also claim if they get a 2nd letter about this then they will pay it and charge me back as they are liable as RK and if I want to contest it I should appeal direct now.

The amount has already gone to £100 in the UKCPM website.

I am the hirer.

The time of incident on the notice is 15:12 but the driver has mentioned they were out of there at least 15 minutes before that and their Google timeline as well as dash cam footage supports that too that they were no longer parked there before 15.00. All the photos from UKCPM are taken at 14:45/46. Can this be a point for a successful appeal as the car wasn't in the car park at the time they claim the "incident" happened?

Their notice also does not state the period of parking and says for the immediate period before the incident time, so I think the notice does not comply with POFA for this.

The notice also says no stopping/no parking but the sign at the car park says Display valid permit so seems inconsistent.

Are there any other breaches of POFA in the notice to keeper attached that you can see?

Potential next steps: 

1. The problem is UKCPM say that the hire company should provide the hire agreement (which I can do) when requesting transfer of liability on behalf of VWFS.  Is that okay - so should I submit an appeal on behalf of UKCPM and attach the lease agreement?

2. The other option is to not do a transfer of liability but send the standard response as per MSE forums. 

The car park signs are also very small and no sign at entrance which could become relevant in a court case.

GSV link is here: [url="https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rathbone+Market/@51.5170925,0.0109388,3a,75y,150.32h,85.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svVGMoCZpClV_vQrsKp7T3Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x47d8a7fd3becf181:0x32fcb068474c2a6a!2sRathbone+Market!8m2!3d51.5166423!4d0.0109006!16s/g/11b7q4rykp!3m5!1s0x47d8a7fd3becf181:0x32fcb068474c2a6a!8m2!3d51.5166423!4d0.0109006!16s/g/11b7q4rykp?entry=ttu"]https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rathbone+...4rykp?entry=ttu[/url]

No sign at entrance to car park, and in fact there is an old council sign (small) that says council permit holders only

https://ibb.co/TrD4Cd6
https://ibb.co/hB9n1t2
https://ibb.co/PNRBy8K
https://i.ibb.co/jyJ26pV/image-69240054-1.jpg

hire agreement terms also here: https://i.ibb.co/M2gPz3H/lease-agreement-2-of-3.jpg

Coupon-mad

You could admit to driving, attach the NTK and third party authorisation and do an appeal to pull it in your direction immediately.

That will happen as soon as you give your name and address as driver.  VW won't then get another letter.

taffer87

ah ok so no need to try and get them to transfer to hirer by giving them hire agreement etc

Coupon-mad

No I would admit to driving and appeal, attaching the VW piece of paper too, to match it all up,  Other advice is available but my main concern would be to hook it away from the lease/hire firm..

taffer87

Ah okay thanks - will need to a bit of reading on appealing as driver! as not really familiar with that 

Umkomaas

taffer87 said:

Ah okay thanks - will need to a bit of reading on appealing as driver! as not really familiar with that 

Won't matter too much - just use the blue text initial appeal template from the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, first post - as UKCPM won't uphold an appeal, and neither will the IAS in any second stage appeal, so don't bother with them. 

Your main objective at this juncture is to hook VWFS away from this, as there is a danger they will pay off UKCPM, charge your account with the £100 and slap on a further juicy admin charge for you to pay them. 

A judge might have to get involved, at least some months from now.

Where are you with getting a landowner intervention to cancel the PCN?

taffer87

Umkomaas said:

taffer87 said:

Ah okay thanks - will need to a bit of reading on appealing as driver! as not really familiar with that 

Won't matter too much - just use the blue text initial appeal template from the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, first post - as UKCPM won't uphold an appeal, and neither will the IAS in any second stage appeal, so don't bother with them. 

Your main objective at this juncture is to hook VWFS away from this, as there is a danger they will pay off UKCPM, charge your account with the £100 and slap on a further juicy admin charge for you to pay them. 

A judge might have to get involved, at least some months from now.

Where are you with getting a landowner intervention to cancel the PCN?

Thanks - the driver went to collect a medicine from a pharmacy at the market. Given the nature of this it is very unlikely the pharmacy will be able to help driectly or care as they are a small local one but will try and contact them tomorrow - to see if they can point me in the direction of who manages it

the land at Rathborne market seems to be owned jointly by 3 entities by Legal and General Group PLC, Muse Development Limited (a subsidiary of Morgan Sindall Group plc) and Homes England (government agency) but assume they must have appointed a manager

Umkomaas

to see if they can point me in the direction of who manages it

If they can't, here's a list of other options I post here quite often:

SOME IDEAS FOR DETERMINING WHO OWNS THE LAND 

1. Google searches

2. If a retail park, check on any signage which lists the on-site outlets

3. Ask retailers on the site if there is a managing agent

4. Ask retailers on the site to whom do they pay rent

5. Contact the local authority and ask who pays the non-domestic/business rate for the car park (some councils have a spreadsheet on their website)

6. Contact the local Valuation Office and ask if they know. They often have a website which might provide the information 

7. Contact The Land Registry and for around £3 they should be able to provide definitive detail

8. If you haven't already done so, give us the name of the car park/site/location, we may have seen other cases there. 

taffer87

Thanks everyone - I filled the transfer of liability form (on behalf of VWFS) on Sunday, 3 December (I had to attach the hire agreement as well as the statement of liability) and from looking online it seems that UKCPM issued a notice to hirer yesterday and has rest the discount so its back to £60. I will report back when I receive the notice to hirer - I will try and make a video of the envelope being opened to gather evidence as hopefully, UKCPM don't include the required documents with the notice to hirer (but it is likely that they will since they refused VWFS' attempt to transfer liability without the required docs).

VWFS has also agreed not to pay (in an email in writing to me) and I have told them that I have sent the lease agreement etc to UKCPM who have issued me a notice to hirer so their liability has gone away.

Appreciate advice was to name as driver but given the authority letter I thought better to go with transferring liability route as that will hopefully allow UKCPM to mess up (and a couple of people on Pepipoo thought worth a try).

- Unfortunately not getting anywhere with the pharmacy/shops/landowner complain so will need to battle it out with UKCPM

Coupon-mad

 I will report back when I receive the notice to hirer - I will try and make a video of the envelope being opened to gather evidence as hopefully, UKCPM don't include the required documents with the notice to hirer (but it is likely that they will since they refused VWFS' attempt to transfer liability without the required docs).

Good plan.

taffer87

so received the notice to hirer today - no documents came with it - I have even taken a video of the sealed envelope and it being opened with just a single double sided page inside

Assume I need to wait until around the 24th now to do the appeal so they can't serve me the missing documents in time (within 21 days from 3 December, when they received the hire agreement/statement of liability from the RK)

Are there any other flaws in the notice to keeper besides the required documents not being attached?

I think it does not meet the requirements below as well so would fail because of that too:

POFA schedule 4(14):

(5)The notice to hirer must—

(a)inform the hirer that by virtue of this paragraph any unpaid parking charges (being parking charges specified in the notice to keeper) may be recovered from the hirer;

(b)refer the hirer to the information contained in the notice to keeper;

(c)warn the hirer that if, after the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to hirer is given, the amount of unpaid parking charges referred to in the notice to keeper under paragraph 8(2)(f) or 9(2)(f) (as the case may be) has not been paid in full, the creditor will (if any applicable requirements are met) have the right to recover from the hirer so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

Should I use the appeal below?

also noticed the notice to hirer doesn't have any reference to POFA at all so they probably know that they are not compliant.. which is very strange as they were refusing the transfer of liability from VWFS without all the required docs

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Appeal wording

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"Dear Sir/Madam

Re: PCN No.

I challenge this 'PCN' as hirer of the car and subsequently request all future correspondence be sent directly to myself at the address listed below:

My street

My Town

My Postcode

I am the vehicle's hirer and keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definitions under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) now it is proven that in this instance, the registered keeper is not the "keeper" (as defined under POFA), UKCPM has no reason to contact VWFS again regarding this PCN and should only engage with me.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers. From looking at Google Street View, there is also an old council sign at the entrance to the car park where the parking charge was issued which says that parking that point is only for CTN council permit holders only and the restriction only applies from 10am-2pm. There is no other entrance sign at the car park saying it is a private car park.

I have also reviewed the dash cam footage of the car in question and it seems that at the time stated in the parking charge notice, the car was not in the car park stated, indeed I have reviewed the footage of the car for the 10 minutes before the alleged incident time and the car was not parked or at the location stated on the parking charge notice.

Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

The notice of hirer served to me is also not compliant with POFA Schedule 4 (14) (5) (a), (b) and (c).

In addition, you have also not provided me with the documents required to be provided with the hire agreement under POFA schedule 4 (14) (2)(a) within the relevant time period, thus you have forfeited your right to pursue the register keeper and/or the hirer of the car. The notice to hirer came without any other documents and I have made a video of the sealed envelope being opened as evidence, if required later.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn as the vehicle is driven by multiple people. You must either offer me a IAS code or cancel the charge.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response and dealing with this matter at appeal or at a court at the earliest opportunity if you won't cancel the charge notice.

Yours faithfully,

My name"

https://i.ibb.co/7SYJ4SW/notice-to-hirer-page-1.png
https://i.ibb.co/BgYXC2t/notice-to-hirer-page-2.png