Is car mechanic right? Coolant leak/RCZ engine issues

Tiiia

 


Hi,

Was hoping this is the correct thread & someone mechanically-minded could weigh-in. Bought a 2nd-hand Peugeot, Dec 2020, my first car. The aftersales was awful (battery died a day later/garage ignoring calls). Following is the order of fixes undertaken between 2020-23 by my local mechanic:

1. New battery

2. Front Brake disc worn, pitted / scored, not seriously weak (MOT result)

3. Two airpipes faulty -fixed

4. Leaking oil (fixed)

5. New gasket installed

6. Re-aligned front wheels (Kwikfit)

7. Mechanic thinks alternator is faulty 

8. He found a weak connection in wiring loom

9. The CAT may be blocked (short journeys cause this, he says)

10. Remote was out of sync (reprogrammed, a minor issue)

11. Emissions are high and brakes are sticking (2nd MOT)

12. Two glitchy sensors were cleaned and refitted

Cut to 5days ago, car shuddered and temp gauge shot up, so i had to wait 1hr for engine to cool before restarting (after some frantic googling), and it now continues to shudder after a 20min+ drive. Back to the same mech it went, who has now found an air pipe broken, hence coolant leakage.

My concern is, he said he fixed these airpipes 7 months ago including sensors - when I questioned him, he goes the pipes were very brittle and broke when he removed them.

I realise this is probs a basic q, but do airpipes really break so soon again after? Its not driven much at all, either (mainly at weekends, less than 10miles). 

Am I being given the run-round? He's also telling me he fixed the sensors but those too, have failed somewhat in the 7 months since he last saw to it

I attached the last text of the latest issue if you wanted to gauge. I think he's generally trustworthy but wanted a 2nd opinion from more experienced car owners (plus its costing me a £fortune in repairs!).

Thanks, Tia

PS: do you think all this is grounds for complaining, as my colleague told me consumers have up to 6 years to make a claim from originally dealership  if vehicle is unroadworthy / litany of issues etc but am not sure

Ayr_Rage

"Cut to 5days ago, car shuddered and temp gauge shot up, so i had to wait 1hr for engine to cool before restarting (after some frantic googling), and it now continues to shudder after a 20min+ drive. Back to the same mech it went, who has now found an air pipe broken, hence coolant leakage."

Air pipes don't leak coolant !

You have probably done irrevocable to the damage to the engine this time.

You should not have driven it at all after the first event let alone for more 20+ minute journeys

Don't be surprised if the garage tells you the engine should be replaced.

Goudy

Split air or intake pipes can cause the engine to suck in unmetered air.
This causes the engine to run incredibly lean.

Your engine works best at an air to fuel ratio of 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel and it will measure the air entering the engine and work the fuelling out from that.

This means any unmetered air entering the engine isn't being fuelled for so there is a lot more air in there than it thinks is there.

The leaner the ratio the hotter the engine gets.
There's not enough fuel in the mix to combust all the air the pistons are compressing so it effectively turns into a massive air pump and as you might have discovered if you have ever held your thumb over the end of a bicycle pump and pumped the handle, compressed air becomes red hot almost instantly.

A bicycle pump is only compressing a few cc's of air without much physical force, yet it get mad hot.
Your car engine is trying to compress 4 much larger cylinders of air much much faster, under much greater force.
That air is also being forced fed under pressure from the turbo as well, so there's more air than the actual volume of the cylinders.

That's a lot of unburnt air under a lot of compression, it's going to cause damage very very quickly.

As the cooling system just can't cope with all the excess heat, it'll boil over and perhaps blow gaskets like the cylinder head gasket.
If it's a serious problem, it could overheat the cylinder head so badly, it warps out of shape.
Worse case could be it's totally cooked the engine. The excess heat could have caused the piston to heat up so much they have expanded in the bores and made a right mess.

I'm not sure, but I seem to remember this particular problem is fairly common on one version of these cars/engine.
Methinks it was the 1.6 version.

The pipe splits due to it being fairly rigid and fixed in position but the engine mounts allow the engine a bit of movement, so the pipe fractures over time as it's put under load it's not designed for.

I would guess with it repeatedly cracking, there's a problem with the engine moving or something is impacting the pipe when it's running.

I have had similar trouble with certain cars where it was possible to buy an aftermarket replacement made out of something like silicone hose or silicone hose and stainless coupler together that had more flex.

I have also managed to chop the cracked section out and sleeve the gap with a silicone hose coupler kit.
This has sorted the air leak and gave the pipe a bit more flex.

WellKnownSid

^^^ This.

After six months you have to prove the vehicle was sold with the fault present.

Pretty much everything you've listed would be typical for a second hand car which covers low miles over a three year period.

Continuing to drive the car in that state has probably cooked far more than a few pipes.

Tiiia

Ayr_Rage said:

"Cut to 5days ago, car shuddered and temp gauge shot up, so i had to wait 1hr for engine to cool before restarting (after some frantic googling), and it now continues to shudder after a 20min+ drive. Back to the same mech it went, who has now found an air pipe broken, hence coolant leakage."

Air pipes don't leak coolant !

You have probably done irrevocable to the damage to the engine this time.

You should not have driven it at all after the first event let alone for more 20+ minute journeys

Don't be surprised if the garage tells you the engine should be replaced.

Well, he's always repaired the vehicle as the main 'go-to guy' (MOTs, servicing, general maintenance) so this came out the blue for me as I was driving 😵

 I guess what I'm getting at is, if I'm paying for him to do repairs and they fail after 6ish months (namely the pipes) then it seems a bit..sus. I don't like to think he's fleecing me but...

Roadside assistance guy came out actually, he thought it was an oil pressure issue so he saw to that and sent me on my way, that's why I drove it the final leg home 🤷‍♂️ 

Arunmor

My ex-wife managed to melt most of the plastics in her engine bay before the engine gave out.  So the air intake pipes (if that is what they are?) would be very easy to destroy.

I think you may have cooked the engine so keep a very close eye on it.

Tiiia

Arunmor said:

My ex-wife managed to melt most of the plastics in her engine bay before the engine gave out.  So the air intake pipes (if that is what they are?) would be very easy to destroy.

I think you may have cooked the engine so keep a very close eye on it.

Hmm I see ok. I just found it to be a real head-scratcher, cost me £500 to have that and other minor fixes applied in April, seems like money down the drain

Thanks for the reply though, I try my best, but car mechanics I leave to the specialists, just felt a bit doubtful is all 👍 

Tiiia

Goudy said:

Split air or intake pipes can cause the engine to suck in unmetered air.
This causes the engine to run incredibly lean.

Your engine works best at an air to fuel ratio of 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel and it will measure the air entering the engine and work the fuelling out from that.

This means any unmetered air entering the engine isn't being fuelled for so there is a lot more air in there than it thinks is there.

The leaner the ratio the hotter the engine gets.
There's not enough fuel in the mix to combust all the air the pistons are compressing so it effectively turns into a massive air pump and as you might have discovered if you have ever held your thumb over the end of a bicycle pump and pumped the handle, compressed air becomes red hot almost instantly.

A bicycle pump is only compressing a few cc's of air without much physical force, yet it get mad hot.
Your car engine is trying to compress 4 much larger cylinders of air much much faster, under much greater force.
That air is also being forced fed under pressure from the turbo as well, so there's more air than the actual volume of the cylinders.

That's a lot of unburnt air under a lot of compression, it's going to cause damage very very quickly.

As the cooling system just can't cope with all the excess heat, it'll boil over and perhaps blow gaskets like the cylinder head gasket.
If it's a serious problem, it could overheat the cylinder head so badly, it warps out of shape.
Worse case could be it's totally cooked the engine. The excess heat could have caused the piston to heat up so much they have expanded in the bores and made a right mess.

I'm not sure, but I seem to remember this particular problem is fairly common on one version of these cars/engine.
Methinks it was the 1.6 version.

The pipe splits due to it being fairly rigid and fixed in position but the engine mounts allow the engine a bit of movement, so the pipe fractures over time as it's put under load it's not designed for.

I would guess with it repeatedly cracking, there's a problem with the engine moving or something is impacting the pipe when it's running.

I have had similar trouble with certain cars where it was possible to buy an aftermarket replacement made out of something like silicone hose or silicone hose and stainless coupler together that had more flex.

I have also managed to chop the cracked section out and sleeve the gap with a silicone hose coupler kit.
This has sorted the air leak and gave the pipe a bit more flex.

Hi thanks for your in-depth comments.

Yes I have the 1.6 Turbo RCZ version. You mentioned the pipe fractures over time as it's put under load it's not designed/ something impacting the pipe when it's running.

In your opinion, as a car that's driven roughly 50 miles a month and is generally 'not exerted much', would this still also result in the new pipes going  cracked/brittle so soon? He text saying basically the end just broke as I he removed them

WellKnownSid

Tiiia said:

In your opinion, as a car that's driven roughly 50 miles a month and is generally 'not exerted much', would this still also result in the new pipes going  cracked/brittle so soon? He text saying basically the end just broke as I he removed them

If the engine has been overheated (which you appear to suggest) - then all bets are off.  If it's only a few plastic components that are damaged, then you got really really lucky.  That particular engine is used in many other cars - and has a reputation for being quite fragile.

You also mention 'money down the drain' in a previous reply.  This is the problem with car ownership when you cover a very small number of miles.  Once cars reach a certain age, many components will be ageing much faster by virtue of sitting still than any wear due to miles e.g. brakes, batteries, seals and gaskets, sensors, actuators, exhausts, etc.  The only thing that wears more linearly due to miles is tyres - but even they have a shelf life.

At 50 miles a month - it will probably be less expensive to book a taxi everywhere than to run a car.  I'm not saying you should do that, but I am saying to consider motoring at that level to be much more like an expensive hobby...

Maintenance wise, you could find yourself spending about the same - or less - if you were driving 500 miles a month.

Tiiia

WellKnownSid said:

Tiiia said:

In your opinion, as a car that's driven roughly 50 miles a month and is generally 'not exerted much', would this still also result in the new pipes going  cracked/brittle so soon? He text saying basically the end just broke as I he removed them

If the engine has been overheated (which you appear to suggest) - then all bets are off.  If it's only a few plastic components that are damaged, then you got really really lucky.  That particular engine is used in many other cars - and has a reputation for being quite fragile.

You also mention 'money down the drain' in a previous reply.  This is the problem with car ownership when you cover a very small number of miles.  Once cars reach a certain age, many components will be ageing much faster by virtue of sitting still than any wear due to miles e.g. brakes, batteries, seals and gaskets, sensors, actuators, exhausts, etc.  The only thing that wears more linearly due to miles is tyres - but even they have a shelf life.

At 50 miles a month - it will probably be less expensive to book a taxi everywhere than to run a car.  I'm not saying you should do that, but I am saying to consider motoring at that level to be much more like an expensive hobby...

Maintenance wise, you could find yourself spending about the same - or less - if you were driving 500 miles a month.

You're probably right, I thought less miles would mean less wear/tear! He has quoted about £400 to fix the heater pipes jn any case

Thanks for the rep!

Goudy

WellKnownSid said:

Tiiia said:

In your opinion, as a car that's driven roughly 50 miles a month and is generally 'not exerted much', would this still also result in the new pipes going  cracked/brittle so soon? He text saying basically the end just broke as I he removed them

  That particular engine is used in many other cars - and has a reputation for being quite fragile.

Basically this.

Writing it's not the most robust engine might be a bit unfair, but perhaps the way it's packaged into engine bays and some of the peripheral components used are more of an issue.

The air intake pipe is notorious for splitting, it's cheap, light and very thin plastic which tends to be very brittle if flexed.

There's the heater pipe that runs under around the back of the engine, under the manifold to the heat matrix and through the fire wall that is also known to break.
It's rubber with plastic fitting on each end.
The manufacturer has tried to shield it from chaffing and under bonnet heat by fitting a short cover over it, but it's no guarantee. 

Once they would have fitted heavier, more robust parts made of thicker plastics, reinforced rubber and metal.
Fixings would have been metal nuts and bolts or steel clips, but modern cars tend to be tightly packed under the bonnet which can cause lots of labour and the use of lighter materials is very common to save overall weight.
Thin plastic clips, fixings, pipes etc all save weight (and the manufacturer money) and often make the initial assembly easier and quicker. 

Weight kills fuel economy and increases emissions, so most modern cars these days have the same sorts of problems. Some are better than others in different places but they are generally stuffed with lighter parts that aren't as robust as parts from 30 years ago.

Under use and short tripping cars can add to the list of problems most cars already suffer from.
You are never getting the engine up to temperature properly which tends to cause the engine to run rich more often than it should causing problems with sensors in the exhaust.
The battery won't have chance to recharge fully, leading to repeated battery failures.

And generally and I know this sounds strange, a lots of parts just don't like doing nothing.

Parts under the bonnet can start to rust as the under bonnet heat usually dissipates any moisture particularly the exhaust, rubber parts perish, furry friends start to make themselves at home and start snacking on rubber, plastic and wiring.

I know it doesn't sound great, but if it's just a matter of replacing these pipes you should count yourself lucky.
Over heating a cars engine can be utterly disastrous.
It can lead to some very expensive work and parts but worse case is total engine failure. 

I know most French cars used to flash up a large red "STOP" when they detected serious problems and it's was always worth doing that!