HMRC delay/solicitor negligence?

LocoVelo

My aunt died in January. Her estate is complex and has a lot of beneficiaries and so we employed a solicitor to handle everything. 

We paid IHT in July and the probate paperwork was passed to the registry at the beginning of August, so we anticipated that we’d be approaching the end of the process. 

Last week the solicitor advised us that HMRC had not passed the IHT421 to Probate Registry. Apparently they first became aware of the issue on October 17 and had assumed it was resolved, but it came to light that it hadn’t (no idea how). 

I am assuming that we are now at the back of the queue. Apparently HMRC have admitted to being at fault and agree we should make a formal complaint. 

Given that the solicitor has access to the Probate Registry’s online tracking system, could/should they have spotted this problem earlier? We are likely to lose the buyer for my aunt’s house as a result of this. 

Our experience is that the solicitor has left everything v close to the wire and previously missed the IHT payment deadline by several days (although apparently we have not been fined). All interactions with her are extremely transactional and she is never proactive. 

A nice twist in this story is that the solicitor sent the email advising us of the issue last thing on Friday and then went on holiday so we haven’t been able to grill them yet. 

I assume they will deny all culpability. I think she is verging on negligent- am I right?

Marcon

LocoVelo said:

My aunt died in January. Her estate is complex and has a lot of beneficiaries and so we employed a solicitor to handle everything. 

We paid IHT in July and the probate paperwork was passed to the registry at the beginning of August, so we anticipated that we’d be approaching the end of the process. 

Last week the solicitor advised us that HMRC had not passed the IHT421 to Probate Registry. Apparently they first became aware of the issue on October 17 and had assumed it was resolved, but it came to light that it hadn’t (no idea how). 

I am assuming that we are now at the back of the queue. Apparently HMRC have admitted to being at fault and agree we should make a formal complaint. 

Given that the solicitor has access to the Probate Registry’s online tracking system, could/should they have spotted this problem earlier? We are likely to lose the buyer for my aunt’s house as a result of this. 

Our experience is that the solicitor has left everything v close to the wire and previously missed the IHT payment deadline by several days (although apparently we have not been fined). All interactions with her are extremely transactional and she is never proactive. 

A nice twist in this story is that the solicitor sent the email advising us of the issue last thing on Friday and then went on holiday so we haven’t been able to grill them yet. 

I assume they will deny all culpability. I think she is verging on negligent- am I right?

Probably unfortunate rather than negligent. Even if it had been spotted, it's not clear how much difference it would make to the time needed to resolve it/the sale of your aunt's house.

I'd still make a formal complaint to her firm - details will be on their website - as well as HMRC.

msb1234

How can how can she be negligent when HMRC had admitted it was their error? As for the probate timescale, considering that the general timescales for probate currently stands at 12 weeks, the solicitor wouldn't necessarily begin to chase it up until after that time. Putting a house on the market before probate has been granted is always a risk as many on this forum can testify. 

Hoenir

msb1234 said:

Putting a house on the market before probate has been granted is always a risk as many on this forum can testify. 

No harm in marketing the property once probate has been applied for. Any potential buyer should be fully aware of the potential consequences when making an offer. While frustrating for the buyer. If there's a genuine interest in the property they'll be prepared to wait. 

LocoVelo

I was wondering if anyone had experience of the online tracking system and could tell me if that would have shown that the application had immediately stalled. As we didn’t apply for probate we didn’t have access. I feel that the solicitor could have been alerted much earlier had she used the tools available. 

Yes, HMRC lost the paperwork but it’s only now that the solicitor is properly tracking them and insisting on a letter confirming that they’ve fulfilled their obligations and passed the IHT241 to Probate Registry. 

Also, she neglected to tell us about the problem when it first arose. It was her assistant who admitted they’d known about it 5 weeks earlier. 

As for the house sale, we started to market it in October based on being several months into the probate process, and the buyer was aware of the dates of submission. Now it’ll be 5 months on top of that.

if the solicitor could’ve tracked progress online and didn’t, I’d say that she shares the blame. After all, I’m paying her to do a job. 

Marcon

LocoVelo said:

I was wondering if anyone had experience of the online tracking system and could tell me if that would have shown that the application had immediately stalled. As we didn’t apply for probate we didn’t have access. I feel that the solicitor could have been alerted much earlier had she used the tools available. 

Yes, HMRC lost the paperwork but it’s only now that the solicitor is properly tracking them and insisting on a letter confirming that they’ve fulfilled their obligations and passed the IHT241 to Probate Registry. 

Also, she neglected to tell us about the problem when it first arose. It was her assistant who admitted they’d known about it 5 weeks earlier. 

As for the house sale, we started to market it in October based on being several months into the probate process, and the buyer was aware of the dates of submission. Now it’ll be 5 months on top of that.

if the solicitor could’ve tracked progress online and didn’t, I’d say that she shares the blame. After all, I’m paying her to do a job. 

You're missing the point: none of the above would have altered the timeframe for completing probate - and HMRC have already admitted it was their fault. 

Klmy

I’ve done my own probate, sent the form mid August, acknowledgement the will had been received at the end of August. Inheritance tax bill dated beginning of August. The tracking system tells you naf all, basically just received, stopped, granted. They sent me an email towards the end of October to say they didn’t have the IHT421 form. I phoned HMRC the next day and they uploaded it immediately and I’ve done a live chat a week or so later to make sure they had it and was told I was added to the queue to be reviewed. Still don’t have the grant, it took me 5hrs to get my live chat answered so I’m not sure solicitors would have the time to enquire or they get the standard “you can’t chase us until it’s been 16 weeks after application” line

GoogleMeNow

As Klmy above, I've also submitted a probate application for my late mother.  It was submitted in September, the tracking system merely states it has been received.  It presumably will be reviewed in due course.  There is no other information.  I do not know if I'm going to have to provide any additional information, but it is very clear that the Probate Office do not encourage any chasing before 16 weeks.

I don't think your application necessarily goes to the back of the queue when further information is required.

You were advised that "apparently HMRC have admitted to being at fault and agree we should make a formal complaint."  If any complaint is to be made, it should be directed to HMRC.  

When my widowed aunt died in 2011, her elderly executors (her sister and brother - she had no children) appointed a solicitor to deal with probate.  It took over a year for that to be settled, which in hindsight was ridiculous for an excepted estate and no IHT to pay. 

TBagpuss

I think you would likely struggle with a complain as while they might have been able to see that things had not progressed, both HMRC and the probate registry have such a lot of delays at present that it would have been very difficult to tell if it was a 'normal' delay or an oversight . Also, HMRC have admitted it was their error. 

Of course you can raise with the solicitor that you are concerned they didn't spot it was taking a long time / hadn't progressed but I don't think it would rise to the level of negligence - at most you could say it was a lower level of service than you expected in that they could have been more proactive and followed up. 

Hoenir

LocoVelo said:

 After all, I’m paying her to do a job. 

Unless you've agreed a fixed fee. Solicitors offices will charge you on the basis of time spent on the case. A few minutes here and there can soon add up to a considerable amount of money. You'd be up in arms if a lot of the time you were charged for was in essence non productive. Solicitors aren't cheap. Optimising their time is a two way relationship. 

There are solicitors offices that will provide a concierge service. Few are able to afford the rates they charge though. 

LocoVelo

Klmy said:

I’ve done my own probate, sent the form mid August, acknowledgement the will had been received at the end of August. Inheritance tax bill dated beginning of August. The tracking system tells you naf all, basically just received, stopped, granted. They sent me an email towards the end of October to say they didn’t have the IHT421 form. I phoned HMRC the next day and they uploaded it immediately and I’ve done a live chat a week or so later to make sure they had it and was told I was added to the queue to be reviewed. Still don’t have the grant, it took me 5hrs to get my live chat answered so I’m not sure solicitors would have the time to enquire or they get the standard “you can’t chase us until it’s been 16 weeks after application” line

Thanks - this is what I needed (ie: somebody’s  actual experience). The solicitor appears to be doing more to follow up *now* - I don’t understand why they didn’t do that in October when the same options were available.