Smart parking case - London - Update 2: Successfully cancelled PCN

Fruitcake

anonuser23 said:

Fruitcake said:

If the PPC wish to hold the keeper liable then the NTK must arrive by day 14 where ANPR has been used, or between 28 and 56 days where a NTD left. In both cases, the date of the alleged event is day zero.

Thank you @Fruitcake

The PPC has only sent the PNC to the keeper and it arrived well after 14 days.  There was no ticket left on window to driver.

What really matters is the issue date because both the Interpretation Act and The PoFA both state that a document sent by ordinary post is presumed to have been delivered (given) two working days after posting for first class mail, and 4 working days for second class mail. From your initial post I see the NTK was sent well after 14 days so is deemed to have arrived too late for the keeper to be liable.

anonuser23

Fruitcake said:

What really matters is the issue date because both the Interpretation Act and The PoFA both state that a document sent by ordinary post is presumed to have been delivered (given) two working days after posting for first class mail, and 4 working days for second class mail. From your initial post I see the NTK was sent well after 14 days so is deemed to have arrived too late for the keeper to be liable.

Thanks again @Fruitcake

I really need to get this correct, sorry for pestering.

If the day of the parking event is day zero then the critical dates are as follows as written on the PCN to keeper:

Date of contravention:  05/09/2023
Date of issue:  07/10/2023

As you can see the date of issue is already 30 days after the event.  The letter was probably delivered a few days after this, but missed by keeper as they were abroad.

So surely, the date of issue is already way past 14 days already?  So the letter was not issued (and arrived) within 14 days.

Is that the correct interpretation just to confirm?

Thanks.

Fruitcake

Yes. If the issue date was after day fourteen, then the date the NTK was received (given) must have been after day fourteen, therefore cannot have been PoFA compliant, therefore the keeper cannot ever be held liable. This is why it is so important not to identify the driver who can always be liable.

anonuser23

Fruitcake said:

Yes. If the issue date was after day fourteen, then the date the NTK was received (given) must have been after day fourteen, therefore cannot have been PoFA compliant, therefore the keeper cannot ever be held liable. This is why it is so important not to identify the driver who can always be liable.

Thanks again.

I'm reading the PoFA 2021 schedule 4 para 9, and the wording makes the head spin.  But it seems like the basics are correct.  The NTK cannot be issued later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked.

Fruitcake

anonuser23 said:

Fruitcake said:

Yes. If the issue date was after day fourteen, then the date the NTK was received (given) must have been after day fourteen, therefore cannot have been PoFA compliant, therefore the keeper cannot ever be held liable. This is why it is so important not to identify the driver who can always be liable.

Thanks again.

I'm reading the PoFA 2021 schedule 4 para 9, and the wording makes the head spin.  But it seems like the basics are correct.  The NTK cannot be issued later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked.

Yes it can. It can actually be issued up to 7 months after the alleged event, but if it is issued after 14 days, then it must have been given after 14 days, counting the date of the alleged event as day zero, then the keeper cannot be held liable. That doesn't mean they won't try

Coupon-mad

Doesn't matter. Smart NTKs are non-POFA.

Lovemycivic

Hi, hope you can help. 

I parked at fantasy island , ingoldmels. It took 16 mins from entry to getting to the pay machine. I input my car Reg and applied to pay for  the days duration £8. It said cancelled and a ticket came out saying so. I tried again and it wouldn’t work after pressing the green button to pay. I tried phoning the number on the signage but an automated voicemail stated ‘cannot connect ‘. I checked my online banking and I had two pending transactions of £8 ( £16 total) so I thought I’d been charged twice. I left the car and returned later that day assuming I’d paid to park. I received a parking charge in the post 2 weeks later  for failing to pay and wax fined £60, I did not pay and  I followed the appeal process and I lost the appeal. I’ve now received another letter asking for £170 or be taken to court. 

I sent photos of the pending bank transactions and photo of the phonecall to the signage number in the first instance. 

What’s my chances of winning at court , is it worth the anxiety. Thanks , Jo. 

Coupon-mad

Just ignore the £170 threatograms of course, as already explained in post 4 of the NEWBIES thread.

Fruitcake

Lovemycivic said:

Hi, hope you can help. 

I parked at fantasy island , ingoldmels. It took 16 mins from entry to getting to the pay machine. I input my car Reg and applied to pay for  the days duration £8. It said cancelled and a ticket came out saying so. I tried again and it wouldn’t work after pressing the green button to pay. I tried phoning the number on the signage but an automated voicemail stated ‘cannot connect ‘. I checked my online banking and I had two pending transactions of £8 ( £16 total) so I thought I’d been charged twice. I left the car and returned later that day assuming I’d paid to park. I received a parking charge in the post 2 weeks later  for failing to pay and wax fined £60, I did not pay and  I followed the appeal process and I lost the appeal. I’ve now received another letter asking for £170 or be taken to court. 

I sent photos of the pending bank transactions and photo of the phonecall to the signage number in the first instance. 

What’s my chances of winning at court , is it worth the anxiety. Thanks , Jo. 

Please read the sticky Announcement for NEWBIES, then if you need further help, please start your own thread where you will get bespoke help.

anonuser23

Dear all, this is hopefully a final update.  I just received confirmation from the business site owner they have had the PCN from smart parking successfully cancelled.

It was my first strategy to contact the business site and explain things to them.  They were thankfully very understanding (it seemed they had to deal with this nonsense all the time).  After a few reminders and patient waiting, I got the confirmation of PCN cancellation.

Checking Smart parking's website also now shows no charge pending for this PCN.  Yes I screen shotted that!

Thank you to everyone in this thread (especially @fruitcake, @Coupon-mad) for help and advice, you were invaluable in clearing up confusion and give the right pointers.

Phew, never want to deal with these cowboys again!  But I'm better equipped if I ever need to.

Anon.