Honorifics/Titles

EarthBoy

CliveOfIndia said:

DullGreyGuy said:

It really confuses the hell out of the US that UK surgeons use the title Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms/Mx rather than Dr

 I've always wondered where this convention comes from.  Put in all that work for the right to call yourself Dr., then do even more work and drop the title.  Seems odd to me, but I'm sure there's a reason for it.

https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/patient-care/surgical-staff-and-regulation/qualifications-of-a-surgeon/

Why are surgeons in the UK called Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs, rather than Dr?

In most other parts of the world all medical practitioners, physicians and surgeons alike, are referred to as Dr while in the UK surgeons are usually referred to as Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs. This is because, from the Middle Ages physicians had to embark on formal university training to gain possession of a degree in medicine before they could enter practice. The possession of this degree, a doctorate, entitled them to the title of ‘Doctor of Medicine’ or Doctor.

The training of surgeons until the mid-19th century was different. They did not have to go to university to gain a degree; instead they usually served as an apprentice to a surgeon. Afterwards they took an examination. In London, after 1745, this was conducted by the Surgeons' Company and after 1800 by The Royal College of Surgeons. If successful they were awarded a diploma, not a degree, therefore they were unable to call themselves 'Doctor', and stayed instead with the title 'Mr'.

Outside London and in the largest cities, the surgeon served as an apprentice like many other tradesmen, but did not necessarily take any examination. Today all medical practitioners, whether physicians or surgeons have to undertake training at medical school to obtain a qualifying degree. Thereafter a further period of postgraduate study and training through junior posts is required before full consultant surgeon status is achieved. Thus the tradition of a surgeon being referred to as Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs has continued, meaning that in effect a person starts as Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs, becomes a Dr and then goes back to being a Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs again!

MattMattMattUK

GingerTim said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I am studying an PhD part time, it is likely to take me 4-5 years to complete, but I will certainly be using Dr once I get it, I am not putting all that effort in to not get free upgrades on flights!

Without wishing to be a Barry Buzzkill, the only time my doctorate got me an upgrade was a flight from Melbourne to Canberra!

(and good luck with it - tough enough doing a PhD full time, let alone part time.)

I have a friend who seems to get them on almost any flight with more than one seating class, so hopefully I can follow his example.

Part time is the only way, I run my own businesses and have a mortgage/life to pay for, so part time around work was the only way it would be possible. I think I will get there in the end, but I actually forgot how different study, and especially self guided research is compared to the world of work. 

CliveOfIndia

EarthBoy said:

CliveOfIndia said:

DullGreyGuy said:

It really confuses the hell out of the US that UK surgeons use the title Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms/Mx rather than Dr

 I've always wondered where this convention comes from.  Put in all that work for the right to call yourself Dr., then do even more work and drop the title.  Seems odd to me, but I'm sure there's a reason for it.

https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/patient-care/surgical-staff-and-regulation/qualifications-of-a-surgeon/

Why are surgeons in the UK called Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs, rather than Dr?

.......

Well I never !  Every day is a school day.  Thanks for that - as I say, this has always puzzled me

dealyboy

@CliveOfIndia said:

EarthBoy said:

CliveOfIndia said:

DullGreyGuy said:

It really confuses the hell out of the US that UK surgeons use the title Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms/Mx rather than Dr

 I've always wondered where this convention comes from.  Put in all that work for the right to call yourself Dr., then do even more work and drop the title.  Seems odd to me, but I'm sure there's a reason for it.

https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/patient-care/surgical-staff-and-regulation/qualifications-of-a-surgeon/

Why are surgeons in the UK called Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs, rather than Dr?

.......

Well I never !  Every day is a school day.  Thanks for that - as I say, this has always puzzled me

... I see you've dropped your hereditary title Clive  .

DullGreyGuy

CliveOfIndia said:

EarthBoy said:

CliveOfIndia said:

DullGreyGuy said:

It really confuses the hell out of the US that UK surgeons use the title Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms/Mx rather than Dr

 I've always wondered where this convention comes from.  Put in all that work for the right to call yourself Dr., then do even more work and drop the title.  Seems odd to me, but I'm sure there's a reason for it.

https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/patient-care/surgical-staff-and-regulation/qualifications-of-a-surgeon/

Why are surgeons in the UK called Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs, rather than Dr?

.......

Well I never !  Every day is a school day.  Thanks for that - as I say, this has always puzzled me

It does back further than that... in the Middle Ages being a doctor was a gentleman's job and surgery was a bloody/messy thing and so doctors were above doing such things. You then got the barber-surgeons... barbers weren't gentlemen and already had sharp razors, scissors and at least a reasonable level of dexterity. This lasted until 1745 when barbers and surgeons separated from each other. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_College_of_Surgeons_of_England 

The above gives some extra history and why surgeons snub the Dr title but ultimately you'd go to your barber for a short back and sides, neaten up the beard and have an appendectomy 

CliveOfIndia

dealyboy said:

@CliveOfIndia said:

EarthBoy said:

CliveOfIndia said:

DullGreyGuy said:

It really confuses the hell out of the US that UK surgeons use the title Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms/Mx rather than Dr

 I've always wondered where this convention comes from.  Put in all that work for the right to call yourself Dr., then do even more work and drop the title.  Seems odd to me, but I'm sure there's a reason for it.

https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/patient-care/surgical-staff-and-regulation/qualifications-of-a-surgeon/

Why are surgeons in the UK called Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs, rather than Dr?

.......

Well I never !  Every day is a school day.  Thanks for that - as I say, this has always puzzled me

... I see you've dropped your hereditary title Clive  .

After I chose the username, I realised he was a somewhat controversial character

The name was actually chosen after an elderly neighbour of mine, sadly no longer with us.  He was a a fairly high-ranking officer in the army in his day, and was the most delightful gentleman you could ever wish to meet, and exceedingly well-spoken ("posh", not to put too fine a point on it !).  Everyone in the village referred to him as "Clive Of India" - no idea where the name came from.  But it was an affectionate nick-name, no malice intended, everyone loved him.

But when I was trying to come up with a user name, I thought of him and thought "That'll do".  Should have researched the character a bit more, with hindsight !

Nasqueron

MattMattMattUK said:

GingerTim said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I am studying an PhD part time, it is likely to take me 4-5 years to complete, but I will certainly be using Dr once I get it, I am not putting all that effort in to not get free upgrades on flights!

Without wishing to be a Barry Buzzkill, the only time my doctorate got me an upgrade was a flight from Melbourne to Canberra!

(and good luck with it - tough enough doing a PhD full time, let alone part time.)

I have a friend who seems to get them on almost any flight with more than one seating class, so hopefully I can follow his example.

Part time is the only way, I run my own businesses and have a mortgage/life to pay for, so part time around work was the only way it would be possible. I think I will get there in the end, but I actually forgot how different study, and especially self guided research is compared to the world of work. 

Depending on how much he's flying, it's far more likely that it's from a members program or similar. Check-in staff look at a passport and match to a name, they are unlikely to even notice a line that says Dr rather than Mr let alone automatically upgrade them. Friend may well be in trouble when someone has a medical emergency and he has to explain his Dr title is because he came up with a new theory as to why monkeys can't ride bicycles (I jest of course!) and he only uses it to impress people about his academic background.  

CliveOfIndia

Nasqueron said:

Friend may well be in trouble when someone has a medical emergency and he has to explain his Dr title is because he came up with a new theory as to why monkeys can't ride bicycles

An acquaintance of mine is a Doctor of Mathematics, and uses the title Dr. on his Linkedin profile.  Always seems a bit pretentious to me, but I guess if you've got the qualification you may as well use it to impress employers if you can.

The one that has always amused me, one of the Chemistry teachers at my kids' school is Dr. Jones (yes, a doctor of chemistry).  No surprise that everyone calls him Indiana   By all accounts he's one of the most popular and much-loved teachers in the whole school, not at all stuck-up.

GingerTim

CliveOfIndia said:

Nasqueron said:

Friend may well be in trouble when someone has a medical emergency and he has to explain his Dr title is because he came up with a new theory as to why monkeys can't ride bicycles

An acquaintance of mine is a Doctor of Mathematics, and uses the title Dr. on his Linkedin profile.  Always seems a bit pretentious to me, but I guess if you've got the qualification you may as well use it to impress employers if you can.

The one that has always amused me, one of the Chemistry teachers at my kids' schools is Dr. Jones (yes, a doctor of chemistry).  No surprise that everyone calls him Indiana   By all accounts he's one of the most popular and much-loved teachers in the whole school, not at all stuck-up.

There's someone in another department of my university called Dr D'aeth. So close! And now he's a professor it's not quite as funny any more.

MeteredOut

CliveOfIndia said:

DullGreyGuy said:

It really confuses the hell out of the US that UK surgeons use the title Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms/Mx rather than Dr

I've always found this slightly odd (with respect to medical doctors).  You slog your guts out for years, study and work really hard, finally you're allowed to call yourself "Dr", and (probably quite proudly, and absolutely rightly so) use that as a title.

Then you do even more studying, even more hard work, become a surgeon or a consultant or whatever, and then go back to calling yourself Mr. or Mrs. or whatever.  I've always wondered where this convention comes from.  Put in all that work for the right to call yourself Dr., then do even more work and drop the title.  Seems odd to me, but I'm sure there's a reason for it.

I'd like to think most doctors qualify for that role, and beyond, for more than recognition from random people they hardly know, especially when those people most likely don't care about suffix a medical profressional choses to use so long as the they are doing the job they being paid to do.

Although I did once go out of my way to call a surgeon "doctor" after he'd corrected me twice, both times in a very snotty manner, for accidentally doing so.

And I always though Esquire was a magazine....