Non woke, non-ethical pensions

Dixter

Hi,
My PensionBee pensions are now being invested according to some standards around ERSG. They say "We believe that pension providers have a crucial role to play in the transition from the carbon economy to one based on renewable energy sources." 
My view would tend to be that they should be focussed solely on getting the best returns and appointing and promoting the most suitable people to do that regardless of reliion, colour, sexual preferences and anything else. 
Several questions arise
1) Are there any non-ethical or fully anti-ethical funds - I'm, guessing oil companies might be a better investment these days if no-one wants to invest in profitable businesses ? And do they do better
2) Are there any pension vehicles that will recruit and promote without any imposed prejudices? 
3) Are there any pension vehicles that won't make decisions on the basis of folks like 
 4) Does anyone have any thoughts or experience of issgovernance.com. Apparently my money is now being used to vote on company issues in ways that don't necessarily match my ethics (Legal, honest and best for the job). 

Just in case anyone misunderstands I am strongly with Martin Luther Kings. They should be judged by the content of their character no by the colour of their skin (or gender or sexual preferences)
"

dunstonh

My view would tend to be that they should be focussed solely on getting the best returns and appointing and promoting the most suitable people to do that regardless of reliion, colour, sexual preferences and anything else. 

Restricted offerings are free to decide how they operate their business model and offerings.

If you don't like a firm's restrictions then go with a whole of market provider/platform who does not restrict.

1) Are there any non-ethical or fully anti-ethical funds - I'm, guessing oil companies might be a better investment these days if no-one wants to invest in profitable businesses ? And do they do better

Over 90% of the funds are conventional (with no ESG, sustainable or responsible restriction)

2) Are there any pension vehicles that will recruit and promote without any imposed prejudices? 

All whole of market platforms and most personal pensions.

3) Are there any pension vehicles that won't make decisions on the basis of folks like 

You appear to have not ended that sentence.   However, again, whole of market platform/providers.

 4) Does anyone have any thoughts or experience of issgovernance.com. Apparently my money is now being used to vote on company issues in ways that don't necessarily match my ethics (Legal, honest and best for the job). 

No thoughts as its irrelevant.

Universidad

The problem with the idea of judging people by the content of their character is that we tend to prefer characters who resemble us. So our judgements, in isolation, tend to be superficial. To really judge someone by the content of their character, you must come to know them. And that means engaging with people who are different, and to whom you're naturally inclined to harbour suspicion.

It is possible (likely?) that without appropriate transition to renewables we could be looking at climate effects that devastate markets within the timeframe of a typical pension investment. From that perspective, ethical funds may have lower returns, but might be seen more as a hedge than a missed opportunity...

DullGreyGuy

Actually companies like BP score very highly on the ESG refencing because of their level of investment in sustainable energy and the on track direction of travel. 

I'm not sure there are enough red necks in the UK for people to come out with products that actively target coal, tobacco, guns and the best you'll get is funds that don't filter them out. Even ESG positive funds typically intentionally hold 10-20% of non-ESG positive assets simply for diversification benefits. 

leosayer

Dixter said:

My view would tend to be that they should be focussed solely on getting the best returns and appointing and promoting the most suitable people to do that regardless of reliion, colour, sexual preferences and anything else. 

Do you really only care about returns regardless of how they are achieved?

Bianchiintenso

I too want to know about such funds...

So I don't touch with my very long bargepole, strange post as it will almost certainly give an overall poor performance,.

Albermarle

In any case many so called ESG funds are hardly that at all. There is a lot of greenwashing involved, although I believe the FCA is cracking down on this,

DullGreyGuy

Albermarle said:

In any case many so called ESG funds are hardly that at all. There is a lot of greenwashing involved, although I believe the FCA is cracking down on this,

I think the answer is really that its difficult... having done some work around ESG its a really complex and subjective thing of how you balance the different components such as the E, S and G, the current state and future state etc. The fact that many companies with ratings are conglomerates which have some good bits and some bad bits but a single over arching score.

Having a regulator set a system would make life much easier but then if everything is so overt then things can be gamed just like the poor quality 4* hotel that made sure it just met each element required to get the 4th star -v- the amazing luxury hotel that'd be a 5*+ were it not for the absence of a large enough swimming pool. 

A fun example was a NFP company that makes satellites that monitor methane, CO2 and other greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere... any profits made are donated to various environmental or social charities. Being something going up in space they have to be red hot on the governance side too. In principle then the poster child for an ESG company however there is a vast amount of pollution created building it, shipping it around the world and then getting it up into space. Do the ends justify the means? Should they be highly rated or blacklisted?

eskbanker

Dixter said:

My PensionBee pensions are now being invested according to some standards around ERSG. They say "We believe that pension providers have a crucial role to play in the transition from the carbon economy to one based on renewable energy sources." 

That wording appears to be taken from https://www.pensionbee.com/esg, which is describing their corporate commitment to ESG and the fact that (as part of this) they give access to an ESG-oriented pension plan, but doesn't state or imply that your pension is being invested in ESG funds!

Which of their plans is your money invested in, and to what extent have you considered changing that?

Albermarle

DullGreyGuy said:

Albermarle said:

In any case many so called ESG funds are hardly that at all. There is a lot of greenwashing involved, although I believe the FCA is cracking down on this,

I think the answer is really that its difficult... having done some work around ESG its a really complex and subjective thing of how you balance the different components such as the E, S and G, the current state and future state etc. The fact that many companies with ratings are conglomerates which have some good bits and some bad bits but a single over arching score.

Having a regulator set a system would make life much easier but then if everything is so overt then things can be gamed just like the poor quality 4* hotel that made sure it just met each element required to get the 4th star -v- the amazing luxury hotel that'd be a 5*+ were it not for the absence of a large enough swimming pool. 

A fun example was a NFP company that makes satellites that monitor methane, CO2 and other greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere... any profits made are donated to various environmental or social charities. Being something going up in space they have to be red hot on the governance side too. In principle then the poster child for an ESG company however there is a vast amount of pollution created building it, shipping it around the world and then getting it up into space. Do the ends justify the means? Should they be highly rated or blacklisted?

Having had some previous involvement with some of these issues, I can only agree it is difficult. However I think some companies, investments ones included, are too free in describing themselves as sustainable, environmentally friendly, green, kind to the planet etc

Another example is on a riverside walk recently, I saw a large new house being built, and the banner on it said 'another sustainable home being built by xxxxx '
Now I am sure it will be well insulated, probably with a heat pump etc. However a previous smaller house had first been demolished to build a much larger property. Is that sustainable ??

Marcon

Dixter said:

Hi,
My PensionBee pensions are now being invested according to some standards around ERSG. They say "We believe that pension providers have a crucial role to play in the transition from the carbon economy to one based on renewable energy sources." 
My view would tend to be that they should be focussed solely on getting the best returns and appointing and promoting the most suitable people to do that regardless of reliion, colour, sexual preferences and anything else. Dixter said:

Hi,
My PensionBee pensions are now being invested according to some standards around ERSG. They say "We believe that pension providers have a crucial role to play in the transition from the carbon economy to one based on renewable energy sources." 
My view would tend to be that they should be focussed solely on getting the best returns and appointing and promoting the most suitable people to do that regardless of reliion, colour, sexual preferences and anything else. 
Several questions arise
1) Are there any non-ethical or fully anti-ethical funds - I'm, guessing oil companies might be a better investment these days if no-one wants to invest in profitable businesses ? And do they do better
2) Are there any pension vehicles that will recruit and promote without any imposed prejudices? 
3) Are there any pension vehicles that won't make decisions on the basis of folks like 
 4) Does anyone have any thoughts or experience of issgovernance.com. Apparently my money is now being used to vote on company issues in ways that don't necessarily match my ethics (Legal, honest and best for the job). 

Just in case anyone misunderstands I am strongly with Martin Luther Kings. They should be judged by the content of their character no by the colour of their skin (or gender or sexual preferences)
"

Several questions arise
1) Are there any non-ethical or fully anti-ethical funds - I'm, guessing oil companies might be a better investment these days if no-one wants to invest in profitable businesses ? And do they do better
2) Are there any pension vehicles that will recruit and promote without any imposed prejudices? 
3) Are there any pension vehicles that won't make decisions on the basis of folks like 
 4) Does anyone have any thoughts or experience of issgovernance.com. Apparently my money is now being used to vote on company issues in ways that don't necessarily match my ethics (Legal, honest and best for the job). 

Just in case anyone misunderstands I am strongly with Martin Luther Kings. They should be judged by the content of their character no by the colour of their skin (or gender or sexual preferences)
"

Have you actually looked at the range of funds offered: https://www.pensionbee.com/plans