PCN for Heathrow T3 when using Virgin Upper Class wing?

demon_princezz

My dad dropped me off at the Virgin Upper Class wing at Heathrow T3 recently (trip was with airmiles, an U/C ticket is not very money saving!) and the entrance is before the drop off zone area.

We assumed this meant no drop off fee would be payable as we weren't using it. My dad then received a PCN while I was still away on holiday, for "using the drop off zone without making a valid payment". My dad said upon exiting the Upper Class wing, the one-way flow of traffic gave him no choice but to pass through the zone, although obviously he didn't stop. 

Does anyone know if drivers are still expected to pay the charge if they use the Upper Class wing? There's no mention of it on Virgin's website - other saying it's before the drop off zone - and I've yet to get a response from an email query. If I was supposed to pay it, then I'll hold my hands up and pay the PCN. Thanks

Coupon-mad

The keeper just appeals online, not saying who was driving. Can't lose.

Best to say something in the appeal like:

The vehicle merely drove through the zone without stopping. There was no parking nor use of the drop off zone. The driver will not be admitted, and you and I both know that there is no chance of 'keeper liability' at an Airport,  so don't waste your time and mine with POPLA. Cancel this PCN and look for lower hanging fruit.

DO NOT TICK 'DRIVER'!

demon_princezz

Coupon-mad said:

The keeper just appeals online, not saying who was driving. Can't lose.

Best to say something in the appeal like:

The vehicle merely drove through the zone without stopping. There was no parking nor use of the drop off zone. The driver will not be admitted, and you and I both know that there is no chance of 'keeper liability' at an Airport,  so don't waste your time and mine with POPLA. Cancel this PCN and look for lower hanging fruit.

DO NOT TICK 'DRIVER'!

Unfortunately that ship has already sailed as an initial appeal has already been made, identifying the driver, saying no contravention occurred because he was just passing through. A response came back today rejecting the appeal with a cut and paste response - it actually includes the phrase "insert signage images here"...

I'm happy to go to POPLA, but trying to clarify whether users of the Upper Class wing are expected to pay or not. If they are, then it was my error. If they're not, then I'll fight it.

Coupon-mad

Oh no. I was hoping not to hear that.

This would have been so easy to see the unfair PCN off simply by appealing as keeper.  You don't pay private parking charges. Can you tell us why do you think paying £100 is a valid option for driving through the zone?

These are not fines. These are scams.

The Government is clamping down on rogue private PCNs and has just declared the parking industry as being in "market failure" and the DLUHC Minister said they are "extorting money from motorists".

 It looks like you need to read the NEWBIES thread and please stop thinking your Dad might be at fault and that the £100 is possibly payable.  It's not.

Is Dad aware of the Government's intervention and does he know that these are not fines, and that you don't pay private parking charges?

UncleThomasCobley

As the "golden ticket" has, unfortunately been wasted by having admitted who the driver was, your dad or you (assuming he is the registered keeper) need to try Plan A by complaining to Virgin Atlantic customer service and ask them to get Heathrow Airport to get their agent, APCOA, to cancel the PCN.

As it is not obvious that using the U/C drop off requires the payment because we already know that the signage is totally inadequate for a contract, they should get this cancelled.

As an ex-Virgn Atlantic employee I know for a fact that their customer service are good, especially if you contact them through social media. Pointing out that an invoice (it is not a "fine) from an unregulated private parking company for using their prestigious Upper Class drop off facility as an Upper Class customer is not welcome and you, your family, friends and acquaintances will highlight this if they do not act and get the airport to get APCOA to cancel it.

Tell your dad that next time he drives through Heathrow to not bother paying the fee and wait for APCOA to issue a PCN and then just appeal as the registered keeper, not the driver, and tell them to go swivel on a sharp stick as you are under no legal obligation to reveal the identity of the driver. They will have no choice but to cancel it and tell you that you are a very naughty boy and to never do it again but they are only doing it out of goodwill.

They cannot transfer liability to the keeper and they have absolutely no way of knowing who the driver is unless, as in your case above, the drivers identity has been blabbed.

Grizebeck

Shame when people make such a basic erro

demon_princezz

UncleThomasCobley said:

As the "golden ticket" has, unfortunately been wasted by having admitted who the driver was, your dad or you (assuming he is the registered keeper) need to try Plan A by complaining to Virgin Atlantic customer service and ask them to get Heathrow Airport to get their agent, APCOA, to cancel the PCN.

As it is not obvious that using the U/C drop off requires the payment because we already know that the signage is totally inadequate for a contract, they should get this cancelled.

As an ex-Virgn Atlantic employee I know for a fact that their customer service are good, especially if you contact them through social media. Pointing out that an invoice (it is not a "fine) from an unregulated private parking company for using their prestigious Upper Class drop off facility as an Upper Class customer is not welcome and you, your family, friends and acquaintances will highlight this if they do not act and get the airport to get APCOA to cancel it.

Tell your dad that next time he drives through Heathrow to not bother paying the fee and wait for APCOA to issue a PCN and then just appeal as the registered keeper, not the driver, and tell them to go swivel on a sharp stick as you are under no legal obligation to reveal the identity of the driver. They will have no choice but to cancel it and tell you that you are a very naughty boy and to never do it again but they are only doing it out of goodwill.

They cannot transfer liability to the keeper and they have absolutely no way of knowing who the driver is unless, as in your case above, the drivers identity has been blabbed.

@UncleThomasCobley - Heard back from Virgin Atlantic customer services this morning - they won't help. This was the response I received:

"I am so sorry that you have been met with unexpected fees traveling to London Heathrow.

"Unfortunately, terminal Drop-Off charges are managed by London Heathrow, and we have no control over waiving these fees. According to their website, the fee is applicable when you enter the area, and does not state in their terms that they only charge when a vehicle stops. 

"Though the Upper Class Wing is designated for Virgin Atlantic customers only, this is still London Heathrow’s zone which falls under their terms of use.

"We recommend that passengers view the London Heathrow Airport Guide to familiarise themselves with what to expect when arriving at the airport. I will however raise your feedback regarding adding more information to our website and this will be reviewed internally."

Will be sure to advise my dad on future trips to the airport though!

demon_princezz

Coupon-mad said:

Oh no. I was hoping not to hear that.

This would have been so easy to see the unfair PCN off simply by appealing as keeper.  You don't pay private parking charges. Can you tell us why do you think paying £100 is a valid option for driving through the zone?

These are not fines. These are scams.

The Government is clamping down on rogue private PCNs and has just declared the parking industry as being in "market failure" and the DLUHC Minister said they are "extorting money from motorists".

 It looks like you need to read the NEWBIES thread and please stop thinking your Dad might be at fault and that the £100 is possibly payable.  It's not.

Is Dad aware of the Government's intervention and does he know that these are not fines, and that you don't pay private parking charges?

@Coupon-mad - Like with quiz questions, which are only easy if you know the answers, if the knowledge was there we wouldn't be where we are now... I was still on holiday when my dad received the PCN.

I don't think paying £100 is a valid option for dropping off at Heathrow - but I would be prepared to pay £5, which is the charge here if paid within 24hrs. I do think the £80 fee it increases to if you miss the 24hr deadline is unreasonable though for a drop-off that takes less than 5mins.

I'm prepared to fight it with POPLA though and have read the Newbie thread, so feel confident common sense would prevail on independent appeal. 

Lesson learned.

UncleThomasCobley

You should try highlighting this failure on their social media to try and get the charge cancelled. They certainly don't like anything negative.

As for when you next use LHR or LGW or any other airport with a "drop off zone" that charges for the privilege, remember that they will have no idea who the driver is, CCTV or not. They have no magic database with a picture of everyone in the country and their details to compare an image of someone too. They cannot use CCTV to forensically try and ID anyone. They are not the police and have no power to do so. An ANPR image can only be used for what it says ion the tin.

Just wait for the NtK and then appeal as the RK and they have nowhere to go but cancel or get spanked by POPLA or a judge.

Coupon-mad

POPLA don't do common sense.  They do scripted replies and are not legally trained so it's 50-50.

You can just totally ignore APCOA you know!

Just wait for the NtK and then appeal as the RK and they have nowhere to go but cancel or get spanked by POPLA or a judge.

They can't, because an appeal has already been done saying who was driving.

There will be no Judge or Court with APCOA. The Keeper is best laughing at the £150 debt demands till it fizzles out.  This is the easy route the OP is looking for - IGNORE APCOA.

UncleThomasCobley

Coupon-mad said:

Just wait for the NtK and then appeal as the RK and they have nowhere to go but cancel or get spanked by POPLA or a judge.

They can't, because an appeal has already been done saying who was driving.

UncleThomasCobley said:

As for when you next use LHR or LGW or any other airport with a "drop off zone" that charges for the privilege, remember that they will have no idea who the driver is, CCTV or not. They have no magic database with a picture of everyone in the country and their details to compare an image of someone too. They cannot use CCTV to forensically try and ID anyone. They are not the police and have no power to do so. An ANPR image can only be used for what it says ion the tin.

Just wait for the NtK and then appeal as the RK and they have nowhere to go but cancel or get spanked by POPLA or a judge.

I was advising for future reference on how to deal with these airport drop-off zone scams.