Deemed contract injustice

mmmmikey

From the discussion above, it does seem like you're in a deemed contract and legally bound by it's terms. However unreasonable the charges may seem in relation to what you've received it's going to be an uphill battle doing anything about it and the risk is you throw good money away after bad by paying a solicitor to pursue a claim you may not win.

Could I suggest a different tack here?

Assuming you took professional advice from a solicitor before buying the property, depending on the level of advice you took I would have expected your solicitor to make you aware of any risks associated with the purchase. If your solicitor pointed out any risks associated with the electricity supply and you chose to accpet those risks then unfortunately I think you'll have to take this on the chin. However, if the advice your solicitor gave you fell short of what you might reasonably expected as part of the service you paid for (either because the advice was wrong or missing) then you might have a claim against the solicitor ("might" being the key word here!).

Perhaps you could start by reading through all the correspondence again you had with your solicitor when you purchased the property, looking for any references to the electricity supply?

When I've bought property in the past, there's always been a report explaining what they've checked and any associated risks with anything they've found, and what they haven't checked (either because they haven't been able to or you haven't asked) and any risks associated there. It would be helpful to understand what was said there.

Also, it may be different in Scotland, but in England it's normal for the vendor to fill out a questionaire covering things like what's included in the sale, any planning permissions, etc. as well as details of supply arrangements for electricity and so on. If any false representation was made there that might give you an "angle of attack".

All in all a bit of a nightmare - hope you get it sorted.

ArbitraryRandom

mmmmikey said:

When I've bought property in the past, there's always been a report explaining what they've checked and any associated risks with anything they've found, and what they haven't checked (either because they haven't been able to or you haven't asked) and any risks associated there. It would be helpful to understand what was said there.

Also, it may be different in Scotland, but in England it's normal for the vendor to fill out a questionaire covering things like what's included in the sale, any planning permissions, etc. as well as details of supply arrangements for electricity and so on. If any false representation was made there that might give you an "angle of attack".

All in all a bit of a nightmare - hope you get it sorted.

I completely agree it's worth investigating, and can be started for free by simply looking at the documentation/communication already held - but I would highlight the OP does say the seller disclosed they didn't know the supplier details (and if this was discussed at any point prior to purchase with the OP not informing/querying it with their solicitor then it would go towards absolving third parties of responsibility). 

mmmmikey

ArbitraryRandom said:

mmmmikey said:

When I've bought property in the past, there's always been a report explaining what they've checked and any associated risks with anything they've found, and what they haven't checked (either because they haven't been able to or you haven't asked) and any risks associated there. It would be helpful to understand what was said there.

Also, it may be different in Scotland, but in England it's normal for the vendor to fill out a questionaire covering things like what's included in the sale, any planning permissions, etc. as well as details of supply arrangements for electricity and so on. If any false representation was made there that might give you an "angle of attack".

All in all a bit of a nightmare - hope you get it sorted.

I completely agree it's worth investigating, and can be started for free by simply looking at the documentation/communication already held - but I would highlight the OP does say the seller disclosed they didn't know the supplier details (and if this was discussed at any point prior to purchase with the OP not informing/querying it with their solicitor then it would go towards absolving third parties of responsibility). 

Thanks yes good point.

born_again

Fetternear1 said:

Thank you for the comments above.

It is an ex commercial brown field derelict site but it did have a live power connection. Initially a tiny amount of power was used to boil a kettle and run some LED lights for some phases of the demolition and a bat survey but this consumption was so minimal it did not even register on the meter (which I now know is a current transformer type and may only register in 100's of KWhrs -  less than £100 worth of power was consumed and I have offered to pay for this consumption).

I bought the site to demolish the sheds and build a domestic home for my retirement. There is mitigation as to why I could not find the supplier. I did try. The property had not been in use for 10 years approx, (the roofs were caving in), and the seller had no knowledge of who was the supplier and had not had any contact from any supplier in the 5 years he owned the property. I now know how to find the supplier online from the MPAN number but did not know that then or that such huge standing charges could be due or even that deemed contracts existed. The fact that the supply was registered on the national data base on an incorrect post code prevented the use of online change websites and no one at any of the supply companies we contacted would even answer their inquiry phone lines. I guess I gave up a bit to easily in hindsight but we are where we are.

The facts remain that SEFE have to give me a copy of the deemed contract if I ask for it and they have not.
Their charges are not reasonable or representative of the actual costs of providing a supply.
They failed to notify me of the deemed contract until 4 months after they started making charges.
The first charges of £74,000 were for power I had not consumed hence my wanting to keep the meter as it provided the only evidence of the power actually consumed.

If SEFE was operating properly, on receipt of my first letter (requesting justification for the charges and asking for supply to cease), on the 5th April they could have been reasonably expected to reply with the actual meter readings, from the 1/2 hourly read meter, confirming no use of power at the site, sent us a form to fill in to terminate the supply and sent terms and details of the deemed contract that they had imposed without our knowledge. We would then have terminated the deemed contract and paid any dues from the time of notification of the deemed contract until the time the site was de energised.

It should have been simple but SEFE seem to have a vested interest in making it difficult - why, just to be nasty, or is it greed or just incompetence or laziness on the part of their dispute resolution and billing team?

The things I hoped to learn from this forum are where can I get expert legal advice on this matter as none of the companies I have contacted have any experience with deemed contracts and when they should terminate or how to fight unreasonable standing charges which are not representative of the actual costs of providing the supply. 

The obligations on the supplier are clearly laid out in their license agreement with OFGEM and this also states they are not allowed to charge termination charges which is clearly the case with a charge to remove a meter they did not install. There are also consumer protections in the electricity act in the section on deemed contracts and clause 8b in schedule 6 paragraph 3 seems to imply charges should stop when the consumer ceases to take supply (but is not specific on standing charges).

Also how can I make my complaint more effective i.e. sending it directly to higher officials in the company?

So in short - SEFE are trying to charge me £26 per day for provision of a meter they cannot read and SEFE did not provide, for 6 months after the property was formerly de energised (according to SEFE and NTOC definitions) and 7 months after SEFE were requested to cease supply. 5 Months of this delay is due to dithering by the Ombudsman's office and SEFE saying they can't do anything while they are considering the case (when the false consumption charges had already been dropped 4 months previously). It gets even more complicated as the Ombudsman's office had told me they had negotiated a hold on my account until this dispute was settled and then later redacted that saying it was only a hold on debt collection not on the accumulating daily charges.This is not what was discussed in recorded phone conversations with their advisor or in the written response to me on their portal.

There has to be some fairness in such things.

Any help on my original 2 questions regarding legal advice and improving my complaint would be most appreciated.

Given the amount this company are wanting from you. The comment from the seller simply does not stack up. If they are chasing you after 2 years...
Clearly they would have been chasing them in that 10 period of ownership. Or is it that they had been taken to court after 5 years. Then were simply ignoring any contact.

No idea on Scottish purchase systems, but is this not something that Solicitor should have flagged up during purchase?

Fetternear1

Thank you for the above comments. I am spitting mad - but mostly at myself for allowing this to happen and not making more effort to find the supplier in the first place. I just had no idea about deemed contracts or that such eye watering daily charges could be levied on a site that has been derelict for over 5 years with not a dicky bird from any supplier.

There is a lot more to this story that I do not wish to share on a public forum. Is there a way of private messaging on this forum?

Many thanks for your time and assistance.

ArbitraryRandom

There is - but I would suggest that anything you don't want to be shared publicly shouldn't be shared privately (given you have no idea who we are and we could just immediately repost whatever you've said... ). 

Gerry1

Fetternear1 said:

Is there a way of private messaging on this forum?

Just click on the poster's name and then click the Message icon.

rp1974

OP,to be completely honest the only other people you should be discussing this with are qualified legal professionals.
To clarify,is it the case that you took this on yourself,without any professional involvment from the outset?.
Please do keep this updated if you can,whilst almost everyone here will try to be helpful,given the enormity of the situation best sticking with the legal eagles for advice/guidance.