Flight delay due to road closure

sheramber

If you are so sure of the position why are you asking on here?

Caz3121

all you can do is submit a claim and see what the response is. With a backlog of flights I would not be surprised if Air Traffic falls into the delay so you may get a response with ATC delay = 10 mins, delay within airline control = less than 3 hours

Wonka_2

larryharvey said:

turnitround said:

Sorry but I find it strange that all this is about arriving 3 hours late on a holiday when there may have been someone in one of the cars who will never get to go on holiday again.  

Take the virtue signalling elsewhere. Cheers.

Not sure you're reading the room here.

There are a few regional airports (and however they pitch themselves Bristol is one of them) that have challenging approach roads with limited alternatives for diversions. I'm a fairly regular user of it and whilst I wasn't in the area on Saturday am I remember listening to the travel news on the radio and thinking of the chaos/lack of alternative options.

Given the late departure of the first wave of flights it's inevitable that later flights are likely to be delayed by more - the airlines can't significantly reduce the turnaround times and ATC are left trying to slot late flights into a planned take off/landing schedule. Added to that many of the destinations will have a limited ground handling crew who, if a flight is out of schedule, can't magically drop what they're doing to unload/load it.

Honestly for me if you're out of pocket for the delay then you push for genuine losses (e.g. taxi because the last bus had left etc) but if you're pushing for compo on the basis of 2h59 vs 3h01 late and your opinion from t'interweb of what are 'extraordinary circumstances' then you're not seeing a lot of support and I'd expect them to push back

It's why on the trains delayrepay system they offer the option to claim the refund, because you're entitled to it, but to donate it to certain charities - especially when the delay has been caused by an incident leading to death/serious injury to an individual

larryharvey

Pretty sure one of the points of this fora is to provide a tome of relevant information that people can search in future. Arguing my case will benefit others who need to do likewise. 

So please, unless you've got something constructive to add, then don't comment, at all. There's no need for virtue signalling or making needless accusations - you come across as unhelpful/trolling for comments.

I know that's the internet in a nutshell these days...but really, either contribute or find some other way to exorcise your negativity. 

larryharvey

eskbanker said:

larryharvey said:

There's plenty of case law that states a knock-of effect for other flights is not a permissible reason to cite extraordinary circumstances.

Have you actually found any yet, that are more useful and citable than that freelance blogger referring to unspecified "recent European court decisions"?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6457624/knock-on-effect-caselaw

eskbanker

larryharvey said:

eskbanker said:

larryharvey said:

There's plenty of case law that states a knock-of effect for other flights is not a permissible reason to cite extraordinary circumstances.

Have you actually found any yet, that are more useful and citable than that freelance blogger referring to unspecified "recent European court decisions"?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6457624/knock-on-effect-caselaw

Yes, in that thread I found and shared that one case, and warned that it's not some sort of universal trump card applicable to every situation, so is that the one you're hoping to rely on, or have you found others that would support your reference to "plenty of case law"?

larryharvey

Caz3121 said:

all you can do is submit a claim and see what the response is. With a backlog of flights I would not be surprised if Air Traffic falls into the delay so you may get a response with ATC delay = 10 mins, delay within airline control = less than 3 hours

This isn't even a thing, as far as I can tell?

larryharvey

37

FROM https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=CELEX:62011CJ0022 In addition, it is apparent from recital 15 in the preamble to Regulation No 261/2004 that ‘extraordinary circumstances’ may relate only to ‘a particular aircraft on a particular day’, which cannot apply to a passenger denied boarding because of the rescheduling of flights as a result of extraordinary circumstances affecting an earlier flight. The concept of ‘extraordinary circumstances’ is intended to limit the obligations of an air carrier — or even exempt it from those obligations — when the event in question could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. As the Advocate General observed in point 53 of his Opinion, if such a carrier is obliged to cancel a scheduled flight on the day of a strike by airport staff and then takes the decision to reschedule its later flights, that carrier cannot in any way be considered to be constrained by that strike to deny boarding to a passenger who has duly presented himself for boarding two days after the flight’s cancellation.

38

Consequently, having regard to the requirement to interpret strictly the derogations from provisions granting rights to passengers, which follows from the settled case-law of the Court (see, to that effect, Wallentin-Hermann, paragraph 17 and the case-law cited), an air carrier cannot be exempted from its obligation to pay compensation in the event of ‘denied boarding’ on the ground that its flights were rescheduled as a result of ‘extraordinary circumstances’.

larryharvey

I also think what @CKhalvashi says at the end of the other MSE thread I linked to above is relevant:

"Agent_C said:

Part of my argument is that the airline was operating 4 flights to the Canaries that day, and 3 departed, albeit a bit late. They chose to cancel ours even though it was due to depart earlier than some of the others. 

We were successful in getting compensation years ago for a similar reason - flights were unable to land at our departure airport due to weather, but they could take off. So the incoming flight couldn't land therefore the airline did not have a plane to take us back home. In that instance I used solicitors Bott and co but I'm trying to do it myself this time! I thought it was a bit more tenuous than the current situation, but I'd asked the airline to cover our costs (new train tickets, food and a night in a hotel) and they refused so I tried for the compensation. 

But it would come to the circumstances of that particular flight.

At some point there will have to come a point where Captains discretion will have to come into FTLs (take the time of the departure and remove an hour from this approximately for start of duty). Discretionary choices are not made by a Captain, but are made by the whole crew. If one crew member is not fit to fly an extended duty then that aircraft will not leave until a suitable replacement is found. This is for safety.

It is expected under EASA rules (and also by UK rules as the CAA haven't changed the guidance, many UK-based crew are dual-licensed at the moment anyway) that the decision to use/exceed discretion must not generally be used while the aircraft is at a base airport.

If an earlier flight was cancelled due to this reason, that won't stop later flights departing, which due to the length of a Canarias flight will generally be done after a crew change in any event.

There's nothing to stop you trying to argue the case (I often advise to have a go anyway), but that doesn't stop the airline arguing that there were restrictions preventing the aircraft from arriving/departing on that day under reasonable control of another authority on safety grounds. Weather is not a catch all argument for either party and it may be worth asking the airport for detailed METAR reports (if you're happy to post these I'm happy to translate them into plain English) and any ground/handling stops or ATC restrictions imposed by them or NATS on that day."


As you can see from the attached, this plane was already in Bristol Airport before all the delays occurred.

larryharvey

The reason I am pursuing this, btw, is 1) no refreshments or water was given to us in the airport, despite my requesting them. 2) Jet2 staff were rude and unhelpful, 3) we were left sat in the plane waiting for take off for an hour, which was also unnecessary, and 4) ruined the first night of a very short holiday. If somebody had said to us "do you want to pay £250 for tickets to Gran Canaria, you'll end up getting to your hotel the first night just before midnight, thoroughly fed-up and tired, and you won't be able to go out for dinner anywhere - but you'll still have a day and a half to enjoy yourselves" we'd have said no.  

It did not feel like an unavoidable !!!!!! - it felt like a bunch of headless chicken were in charge and an inevitable result of a not being prepared. There was simply no contingency plan in place.