Speed limit signs

Shepton50

I always understood that under TSR&GD 2002 a speed limit area had to have 2 signs, one on each side of the road at every entrance and exit to the area and without this the speed limit was not enforceable ?
Has this changed in more the recent TSR&GD 2016 that an area can use 1 sign ?

TadleyBaggie

Yes, the new guidelines say something along the lines “as long as the limit is adequately presented” one sign is enough. 

Shepton50

I have now received my conditional offer of a fixed penalty letter.
I have not seen any evidence of me speeding past a camera, yet I have to choose to admit it ( without evidence ) or request a court hearing ( again without evidence ) The NIP notes say that they don't have to give evidence until it progresses to court. How can I decide to go to court and defend myself without evidence ? 

Car_54

Shepton50 said:

I have now received my conditional offer of a fixed penalty letter.
I have not seen any evidence of me speeding past a camera, yet I have to choose to admit it ( without evidence ) or request a court hearing ( again without evidence ) The NIP notes say that they don't have to give evidence until it progresses to court. How can I decide to go to court and defend myself without evidence ? 

You will be provided with the evidence before it gets to court.

Aretnap

Shepton50 said:

I have now received my conditional offer of a fixed penalty letter.
I have not seen any evidence of me speeding past a camera, yet I have to choose to admit it ( without evidence ) or request a court hearing ( again without evidence ) The NIP notes say that they don't have to give evidence until it progresses to court. How can I decide to go to court and defend myself without evidence ? 

You have a right to see the evidence if you go to court any enter a not guilty plea. In theory you have no need to see it until then because you decide whether or not to accept the fixed penalty or whether to plead guilty based in whether you think you committed the offence, not on whether you think they have enough evidence to convict you. In theory at any rate.

Of course if the main plank of your defence is that the speed limit was inadequately signposted then it doesn't matter what evidence they have if your speed - if the signage is inadequate you can't be convicted in any event. Did you have any other particular defence in mind?

facade

Shepton50 said:

I have now received my conditional offer of a fixed penalty letter.
I have not seen any evidence of me speeding past a camera, yet I have to choose to admit it ( without evidence ) or request a court hearing ( again without evidence ) The NIP notes say that they don't have to give evidence until it progresses to court. How can I decide to go to court and defend myself without evidence ? 

The COFP is an "offer" to dispose of the matter without the expense & complexity of going to court. It is not an admission of guilt (except that it is treated as such, and if someone else accepts one for you it is a perversion of the course of justice with custodial penalties.....).

If you opt for court, only then do they go to the trouble of producing an evidence pack, and you use it to decide whether to plead not guilty or guilty.

Basically, you only opt for court if you didn't do it or you are convinced that the limit cannot be enforced.

If you know that you were speeding then the least costly option is accepting the COFP.

Pleading guilty, or being found guilty bring much larger penalties, plus costs plus victim surcharges.

CliveOfIndia

Shepton50 said:

How can I decide to go to court and defend myself without evidence ? 

As above, evidence will be provided prior to a court appearance, if that is what you choose to do.  But realistically, you must have a pretty good idea yourself of whether or not you were speeding.  If you're fairly sure it's a fair cop then just accept the FPN and move on - an isolated SP30 on an otherwise clean licence will have a very minor effect on insurance etc.  And it's far preferable to the alternative which a magistrate is entitled to impose should you go to court and be found guilty.

Shepton50

Thank you all for your advice.

CliveOfIndia said:

As above, evidence will be provided prior to a court appearance, if that is what you choose to do.  But realistically, you must have a pretty good idea yourself of whether or not you were speeding.  If you're fairly sure it's a fair cop then just accept the FPN and move on - an isolated SP30 on an otherwise clean licence will have a very minor effect on insurance etc.  And it's far preferable to the alternative which a magistrate is entitled to impose should you go to court and be found guilty.

The reason for asking about evidence is I genuinely don't know if I was speeding or not.
This was the infamous fixed speed camera at the bottom of the M11 where it goes from Motorway 70 MPH to 50 MPH.
Most of the time you cannot speed because there is so much traffic all sticking to the speed limit.
This was at around 11am on a Monday morning which I can't believe there was no traffic.
If I knew I was speeding then I would suck it up and take the fixed penalty.
However I would want to see the evidence that I was speeding before I made a decision to go to court.
Allegedly I was doing 68 MPH in the 50 MPH zone so no speed awareness course.
I do have a clean licence.
What would the SP code be in this case ?
Is it still a SP30 or is it a SP50 ? It was on a motorway but with a restricted speed of 50 ?
What effect will this level have on insurance ?

Aretnap said:

Of course if the main plank of your defence is that the speed limit was inadequately signposted then it doesn't matter what evidence they have if your speed - if the signage is inadequate you can't be convicted in any event. Did you have any other particular defence in mind?

I did look at the signage which was the reason for my opening question.
Signs leaving the 50 zone vary from only having one sign to signs hidden in foliage.
Obviously the entrance signs that I went through are big signs on each side of the motorway.
If there was a reason that the signage was illegal I would appeal on that, but again you don't get to appeal it before going to court.

facade said:

Basically, you only opt for court if you didn't do it or you are convinced that the limit cannot be enforced.

If you know that you were speeding then the least costly option is accepting the COFP.

Pleading guilty, or being found guilty bring much larger penalties, plus costs plus victim surcharges.CliveOfIndia said:

Shepton50 said:

How can I decide to go to court and defend myself without evidence ? 

As above, evidence will be provided prior to a court appearance, if that is what you choose to do.  But realistically, you must have a pretty good idea yourself of whether or not you were speeding.  If you're fairly sure it's a fair cop then just accept the FPN and move on - an isolated SP30 on an otherwise clean licence will have a very minor effect on insurance etc.  And it's far preferable to the alternative which a magistrate is entitled to impose should you go to court and be found guilty.

It looks like I will have to accept the fixed penalty.

Car_54

It will be SP50. But probably still little effect on insurance.

Goudy

I am certain that part of the M11 has clear 50mph signs (with notice of speed cameras) on both sides of the southbound lanes, slightly after the two signs each side of the road letting you know the lanes are reducing from three to two which well before the camera.

The camera is around 500 yards after the 50 mph/Camera signs.
M11 - Google Maps

There are two more smaller 50mph signs just as the lanes reduce, still before the camera.
M11 - Google Maps

and there's another set of 50mph signs just after the camera.
M11 - Google Maps

The speed limit is well signed unfortunately.


As already mentioned, you won't get evidence with the FPN offer, only if you reject it and decide to go to court.

If you go to court and contest it by saying you didn't see the signs for whatever reason (and they are clearly visible) it could back fire. It could be seen as you are admitting you weren't really concentrating on driving.

It might cause the judge to think you might need a stiffer reminder to take a bit more care on the road.

You could of course take the chance and go to court, then you will get the evidence before hand.
You could then decide to plead guilty if it's obvious you were actually speeding, but you run the risk of a larger penalty, plus all the faff of turning up at court.

CliveOfIndia

You could then decide to plead guilty if it's obvious you were actually speeding, but you run the risk of a larger penalty, plus all the faff of turning up at court.

This is a very valid point.  Even if you plead guilty at court, you'll almost certainly be given a fine that is higher than the £100 fixed penalty, plus a victim surcharge on top.  In addition to, as you say, the faff of having to take a day off work to attend court.  It's really not worth choosing a court hearing unless you're sure you've got a cast-iron defence.

And as you rightly say, claiming that you didn't notice the signs is likely to see you being given a "driving without due care and attention" penalty on top of the speeding.