Authority/Regulator for complaint about travel agent.

eskbanker

elsanto said:

What I am saying is that they cannot use the excuse that it is not a company operating in the UK, for instance if I take them to court. I think I found an address for Last Minute in the UK.
It depends what you mean by 'operating in the UK' - they're clearly a Swiss company, whose facilities are accessible globally via their website, etc, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you'd be able to sue them in the UK, even if you've located an address here.
 
Also, Paypal deals with complaints regardless of where the claimant or respondent are in the world.

In any event, Paypal charge high fees, to be able to pay with them, in order to offer services like complaints for bad service (or goods that were not delivered) involving wanting your money back. I am just putting my case together.
Yes, you hadn't mentioned PayPal initially but as you say they do offer a disputes process, which isn't tied to corporate locations or legal jurisdictions, so it would seem that their buyer protection route is your most likely avenue to pursue this.

Companies are writing Terms and Conditions, that keep getting longer and longer, in order to cover their !!!!!! when the complaints come. So saying things like "there are no seats" is totally unreasonable if they did not warn you about this in their T & Cs.
As above, I disagree!  An agent selling airline tickets can obviously only do so to the extent that there are actually tickets available to sell, i.e. they can't be expected to magic up seats on a full flight, and I wouldn't see this needing to be included in Ts & Cs, as it's so obvious and inherent in such activities.

Last Minute deal with a lot of airlines. Once again, Their T & Cs do not say it has to be the same airline.
If you're saying that you bought a ticket on an Air Canada flight, including flexibility to change dates, then IMHO it's unreasonable to expect Lastminute to rebook you onto another airline's flight, except perhaps if the original was cancelled!  It's still unclear exactly how they offer the date flexibility but it ought to be expected that they'd buy an Air Canada ticket at a fare code that allows changes, but only onto another Air Canada flight - if you were genuinely hoping that they'd be obliged to put you onto another airline's flight then please make sure you find a better line of argument!

Buyers cannot be expected to detect all small traps that the sellers put for them. Consumer law caters for this, like on the extra insurance for a loan scandal.
Up to a point, but there's nothing in consumer law that would support an expectation for a flexible airline ticket to be exchangeable for one on another airline!

I could not have made a mistake missing things in their page offering the added fare for being able to change your dates because I was already planning to do so and it was on the return flight (I did not know when we would be able to return) so I was careful to check all the details relating to what I wanted to do.
If they promised date flexibility then you should have been able to change the date to another one but with the same airline - to turn your argument round the other way, what did you see that stated, or even implied, that you'd be able to rebook onto another airline's flight?

Comments inline above....

elsanto

eskbanker said:

elsanto said:

What I am saying is that they cannot use the excuse that it is not a company operating in the UK, for instance if I take them to court. I think I found an address for Last Minute in the UK.
It depends what you mean by 'operating in the UK' - they're clearly a Swiss company, whose facilities are accessible globally via their website, etc, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you'd be able to sue them in the UK, even if you've located an address here.
 
Also, Paypal deals with complaints regardless of where the claimant or respondent are in the world.

In any event, Paypal charge high fees, to be able to pay with them, in order to offer services like complaints for bad service (or goods that were not delivered) involving wanting your money back. I am just putting my case together.
Yes, you hadn't mentioned PayPal initially but as you say they do offer a disputes process, which isn't tied to corporate locations or legal jurisdictions, so it would seem that their buyer protection route is your most likely avenue to pursue this.

Companies are writing Terms and Conditions, that keep getting longer and longer, in order to cover their !!!!!! when the complaints come. So saying things like "there are no seats" is totally unreasonable if they did not warn you about this in their T & Cs.
As above, I disagree!  An agent selling airline tickets can obviously only do so to the extent that there are actually tickets available to sell, i.e. they can't be expected to magic up seats on a full flight, and I wouldn't see this needing to be included in Ts & Cs, as it's so obvious and inherent in such activities.

Last Minute deal with a lot of airlines. Once again, Their T & Cs do not say it has to be the same airline.
If you're saying that you bought a ticket on an Air Canada flight, including flexibility to change dates, then IMHO it's unreasonable to expect Lastminute to rebook you onto another airline's flight, except perhaps if the original was cancelled!  It's still unclear exactly how they offer the date flexibility but it ought to be expected that they'd buy an Air Canada ticket at a fare code that allows changes, but only onto another Air Canada flight - if you were genuinely hoping that they'd be obliged to put you onto another airline's flight then please make sure you find a better line of argument!

Buyers cannot be expected to detect all small traps that the sellers put for them. Consumer law caters for this, like on the extra insurance for a loan scandal.
Up to a point, but there's nothing in consumer law that would support an expectation for a flexible airline ticket to be exchangeable for one on another airline!

I could not have made a mistake missing things in their page offering the added fare for being able to change your dates because I was already planning to do so and it was on the return flight (I did not know when we would be able to return) so I was careful to check all the details relating to what I wanted to do.
If they promised date flexibility then you should have been able to change the date to another one but with the same airline - to turn your argument round the other way, what did you see that stated, or even implied, that you'd be able to rebook onto another airline's flight?

Comments inline above....

They can tell you there is no availability BEFORE they sell you the ticket, not afterwards and if they find out that the seats are no there AFTER you buy the ticket, it is very much their problem, not yours.

Once again, if they say that you can change your ticket date and they do not tell you there are restrictions like it has to be with the same airline or that it is subject to availability, then it is their problem if there are no seats. They have to find you a seat somewhere and, yes, I told you that I saw the availability of seats on the same airline website and I took snapshots as evidence. 

Up to a point, but there's nothing in consumer law that would support an expectation for a flexible airline ticket to be exchangeable for one on another airline!

Yes, it is reasonable to expect that. The consumer does not have the obligation to know how they do those things internally. I assume they have deals with several airlines and that the airlines give priority or keep tickets for travel agents. What you say is like claiming that it is fine that a company guarantees the delivery of a parcel by a certain date and then they don't deliver and come up with the excuse that the guaranteed delivery only applies if they deliver it by the white van which was not available that day. It is THEIR problem.

But I have said that this was just one excuse and I am using, as evidence, that they gave one excuse after another until they thought they had the one. Another one was that I did not ask for the change within the deadline to ask. I told them in time, they disappeared for two days and came back to tell me it was too late to ask for the change. Then I showed them the dates (I took snapshots of the online conversations) and they moved on to the next excuse.

I invite you to go and see the reviews of Lastminute in the internet so that you can see that you are defending people who are complete crooks and I am going to prove it.

It's still unclear exactly how they offer the date flexibility but it ought to be expected that they'd buy an Air Canada ticket at a fare code that allows changes, but only onto another Air Canada flight.

You are speculating and you prove you do not know because they do not tell you. It is NOT my obligation to guess.
If they had told me, in the T & Cs all those things that you are speculating about, then I would not have bought the tickets from them. 

I am trying to tell you that Last Minute has made THEIR problem mine. 

Caz3121

elsanto said:

There was no mention anywhere, in the t&cs I saw on the website or the new ones they sent me later, or the new ones they put on their site, about the change of date being subject to availability and, like I said, I found the seats with another airline. Furthermore, they did not even offer me alternative dates if it had been true that they could not find seats. Those flights were not very busy. I told them I was fairly flexible in the dates. AND, the new date I wanted was about 6 weeks away.

when given the choice to add 'Flexible' the link takes you to these t&cs from 2021

terms and conditions

The change of the flight is subject to the following conditions: 

- the new flight shall be carried by the same airline and for the same original routes (it is not possible to change point of origin and destination); 

- changes to bookings must be requested no later than 24 hours before the scheduled departure time of the first outbound flight;

eskbanker

elsanto said:

They can tell you there is no availability BEFORE they sell you the ticket, not afterwards and if they find out that the seats are no there AFTER you buy the ticket, it is very much their problem, not yours.
I think you've misunderstood the discussion about availability - the context was that the flexibility offer can't be unconditional when changing dates and inherently has to recognise that availability is finite.  Obviously when you first buy a ticket then it's reasonable to expect that they honour that original booking, or at least make it clear that it's provisional, but that's a different issue.

Once again, if they say that you can change your ticket date and they do not tell you there are restrictions like it has to be with the same airline or that it is subject to availability, then it is their problem if there are no seats. They have to find you a seat somewhere
I can't think of any other ways of highlighting my disagreement with that perception again!

and, yes, I told you that I saw the availability of seats on the same airline website and I took snapshots as evidence.
Make your mind up ("like I said, I found the seats with another airline")!  However, if you have evidence of finding equivalent seats on the same airline, and they refused to allow you to change onto them, then that does seem a credible argument for you to put forward.

Up to a point, but there's nothing in consumer law that would support an expectation for a flexible airline ticket to be exchangeable for one on another airline!

Yes, it is reasonable to expect that. The consumer does not have the obligation to know how they do those things internally. I assume they have deals with several airlines and that the airlines give priority or keep tickets for travel agents. What you say is like claiming that it is fine that a company guarantees the delivery of a parcel by a certain date and then they don't deliver and come up with the excuse that the guaranteed delivery only applies if they deliver it by the white van which was not available that day. It is THEIR problem.
No, that really is a poor analogy that doesn't fit - it's nothing to do with 'knowledge of how they do things internally', it's basic common sense: if you buy a flexible Air Canada ticket through an agent, then that should give you the right to change to an equivalent flight with the same airline on a different day.  I repeat my earlier question: what did you see that stated, or even implied, that you'd be able to rebook onto another airline's flight?

But I have said that this was just one excuse and I am using, as evidence, that they gave one excuse after another until they thought they had the one. Another one was that I did not ask for the change within the deadline to ask. I told them in time, they disappeared for two days and came back to tell me it was too late to ask for the change. Then I showed them the dates (I took snapshots of the online conversations) and they moved on to the next excuse.
Fair enough, that sounds worth including.

I invite you to go and see the reviews of Lastminute in the internet so that you can see that you are defending people who are complete crooks and I am going to prove it.
I'm not defending Lastminute here, I'm just highlighting the most significant flaws in your argument, but it does sound like there are some valid points in there too, so those are the aspects worth concentrating on, rather than diluting your case with the irrelevant and untenable stuff!

It's still unclear exactly how they offer the date flexibility but it ought to be expected that they'd buy an Air Canada ticket at a fare code that allows changes, but only onto another Air Canada flight.

You are speculating and you prove you do not know because they do not tell you. It is NOT my obligation to guess.
I'm not making any secret of the fact that it's not clear to me exactly how their date flexibility offering works, but haven't researched it in detail to understand how it differs from the more normal situation of buying more expensive tickets from the airline rather than paying a premium to the agent.  And I'd like to think that if I was going to spend money on an add-on policy (and anticipated needing to activate it), I'd make sure I ascertained if/how it worked before doing so....

If they had told me, in the T & Cs all those things that you are speculating about, then I would not have bought the tickets from them.
If the above-quoted 2021 terms are still those applying now then it works just like I assumed it would - note that they also explicitly include "the availability of the new flight selected by the Customer cannot be guaranteed".

I am trying to tell you that Last Minute has made THEIR problem mine. 
And I'm trying to tell you that your perceptions about their obligations appear misguided, but nonetheless if there were equivalent Air Canada seats available and they essentially refused to allow you to change onto one of those flights then I think you do have a case.

See above....

elsanto

Caz3121 said:

elsanto said:

There was no mention anywhere, in the t&cs I saw on the website or the new ones they sent me later, or the new ones they put on their site, about the change of date being subject to availability and, like I said, I found the seats with another airline. Furthermore, they did not even offer me alternative dates if it had been true that they could not find seats. Those flights were not very busy. I told them I was fairly flexible in the dates. AND, the new date I wanted was about 6 weeks away.

when given the choice to add 'Flexible' the link takes you to these t&cs from 2021

terms and conditions

The change of the flight is subject to the following conditions: 

- the new flight shall be carried by the same airline and for the same original routes (it is not possible to change point of origin and destination); 

- changes to bookings must be requested no later than 24 hours before the scheduled departure time of the first outbound flight;

If they were to use those arguments, fine. I have got snapshots of the airline website showing that they had seats for the date I wanted. I was not fuzzy about the route either. I requested the change at least 48 hours before the original date. 
Added to this, I did not ger those T&Cs because I did not buy my tickets from the Bravo Next site but from Lastminute. Imagine you buy a car from a Jaguar garage. They give you their warranty documents and when something goes wrong they tell you "oh, you should have gone to the Tata website to read the T&Cs. They do not cover you for that.

In any case, it is good to hear the devil's advocates' arguments in order to be prepared for the Lastminute excuses.
The review sites, like Trustpilot, are full of people complaining about Lastminute but I do not thing any of them take action. I wonder if it is because they easily get put off by arguments like these that Lastminute gives them.

elsanto

eskbanker said:

elsanto said:

They can tell you there is no availability BEFORE they sell you the ticket, not afterwards and if they find out that the seats are no there AFTER you buy the ticket, it is very much their problem, not yours.
I think you've misunderstood the discussion about availability - the context was that the flexibility offer can't be unconditional when changing dates and inherently has to recognise that availability is finite.  Obviously when you first buy a ticket then it's reasonable to expect that they honour that original booking, or at least make it clear that it's provisional, but that's a different issue.

Once again, if they say that you can change your ticket date and they do not tell you there are restrictions like it has to be with the same airline or that it is subject to availability, then it is their problem if there are no seats. They have to find you a seat somewhere
I can't think of any other ways of highlighting my disagreement with that perception again!

and, yes, I told you that I saw the availability of seats on the same airline website and I took snapshots as evidence.
Make your mind up ("like I said, I found the seats with another airline")!  However, if you have evidence of finding equivalent seats on the same airline, and they refused to allow you to change onto them, then that does seem a credible argument for you to put forward.

Up to a point, but there's nothing in consumer law that would support an expectation for a flexible airline ticket to be exchangeable for one on another airline!

Yes, it is reasonable to expect that. The consumer does not have the obligation to know how they do those things internally. I assume they have deals with several airlines and that the airlines give priority or keep tickets for travel agents. What you say is like claiming that it is fine that a company guarantees the delivery of a parcel by a certain date and then they don't deliver and come up with the excuse that the guaranteed delivery only applies if they deliver it by the white van which was not available that day. It is THEIR problem.
No, that really is a poor analogy that doesn't fit - it's nothing to do with 'knowledge of how they do things internally', it's basic common sense: if you buy a flexible Air Canada ticket through an agent, then that should give you the right to change to an equivalent flight with the same airline on a different day.  I repeat my earlier question: what did you see that stated, or even implied, that you'd be able to rebook onto another airline's flight?

But I have said that this was just one excuse and I am using, as evidence, that they gave one excuse after another until they thought they had the one. Another one was that I did not ask for the change within the deadline to ask. I told them in time, they disappeared for two days and came back to tell me it was too late to ask for the change. Then I showed them the dates (I took snapshots of the online conversations) and they moved on to the next excuse.
Fair enough, that sounds worth including.

I invite you to go and see the reviews of Lastminute in the internet so that you can see that you are defending people who are complete crooks and I am going to prove it.
I'm not defending Lastminute here, I'm just highlighting the most significant flaws in your argument, but it does sound like there are some valid points in there too, so those are the aspects worth concentrating on, rather than diluting your case with the irrelevant and untenable stuff!

It's still unclear exactly how they offer the date flexibility but it ought to be expected that they'd buy an Air Canada ticket at a fare code that allows changes, but only onto another Air Canada flight.

You are speculating and you prove you do not know because they do not tell you. It is NOT my obligation to guess.
I'm not making any secret of the fact that it's not clear to me exactly how their date flexibility offering works, but haven't researched it in detail to understand how it differs from the more normal situation of buying more expensive tickets from the airline rather than paying a premium to the agent.  And I'd like to think that if I was going to spend money on an add-on policy (and anticipated needing to activate it), I'd make sure I ascertained if/how it worked before doing so....

If they had told me, in the T & Cs all those things that you are speculating about, then I would not have bought the tickets from them.
If the above-quoted 2021 terms are still those applying now then it works just like I assumed it would - note that they also explicitly include "the availability of the new flight selected by the Customer cannot be guaranteed".

I am trying to tell you that Last Minute has made THEIR problem mine. 
And I'm trying to tell you that your perceptions about their obligations appear misguided, but nonetheless if there were equivalent Air Canada seats available and they essentially refused to allow you to change onto one of those flights then I think you do have a case.

See above....

That is interesting because Lastminute will also be trying to get me by combing with a fine-tooth comb my messages, like you are doing. I said I bought the tickets from another airline and that was because they were cheaper than with the original airline. I have also said that I have got snapshots of the seats availability with the original airline. If I am just an individual and I can find seats better than Lastminute  Of course they did not even look for the seats.

AND, if they promise they will change the date (I gave them about 5 weeks to find the seats) and they so not warn you if these absurd excuse you give, it is THEIR problem: refund if you cannot deliver. That is how businesses operate.

You can repeat it as many times as you want but there was NO 'subject to availability' disclaimer in their T&Cs.

I repeat, those T&Cs were not on the site where I bought the tickets.

In any case, like I said the other poster helping, it is good to read all these possible arguments Lastminute can give to be prepared.

The one problem I recognise I have is that the page where I read their T&Cs has disappeared. I told you that they ignored me when I asked them to send it to me (for a reason).

The last excuse they gave was that one can only change the date of original departure, not return. However, considering I was planning to change my return date, I could not have missed this after I read and re-read their online T&Cs.

eskbanker

elsanto said:
In any case, it is good to hear the devil's advocates' arguments in order to be prepared for the Lastminute excuses.

On the basis that you're receptive to them, here are some more thoughts!

elsanto said:
I did not ger those T&Cs because I did not buy my tickets from the Bravo Next site but from Lastminute. 

Perhaps earlier comments weren't clear - nobody disputes that you visited and transacted via a website called lastminute.com, and presumably received documentation in the name of that brand too.  However, the underlying legal entity with whom you're actually contracting is BravoNext, as clarified in all Ts & Cs quoted thus far, so in the event of court action that's who you'd need to sue.

elsanto said:
Imagine you buy a car from a Jaguar garage. They give you their warranty documents and when something goes wrong they tell you "oh, you should have gone to the Tata website to read the T&Cs. They do not cover you for that.

That's actually quite a good example, but not in the way you think!  It's not uncommon for car dealers to offer warranty services via third parties, to whom they'd direct you to make claims, albeit this wouldn't typically be the case with branded main dealers....

elsanto said:

The review sites, like Trustpilot, are full of people complaining about Lastminute but I do not thing any of them take action. I wonder if it is because they easily get put off by arguments like these that Lastminute gives them.

Let's face it, talk is cheap, so sounding off on review sites involves very little effort, but to construct and execute an effective legal or contractual case against companies is much less straightforward, especially when the company isn't UK based.  That's obviously not to say that it's impossible, but bravado costs nothing!

Caz3121

elsanto said:

Added to this, I did not ger those T&Cs because I did not buy my tickets from the Bravo Next site but from Lastminute. 

those t&cs came from the Lastminute site
I went on there, did a dummy booking, once chosen flights had the option to proceed or change to 'Flexible' 

Above the 'Go Flexible' button you see

"I've read and accepted the Terms & Conditions"

did you accept them without reading them or did you book some other way?

eskbanker

elsanto said:

AND, if they promise they will change the date (I have them about 5 weeks to find the seats) and they so not warn you if these absurd excuse you give, it is THEIR problem: refund if you cannot deliver. That is how businesses operate.
It's no good generalising about your perceptions of businesses in other sectors - I've asked more than once what gave you the impression that LM had some sort of open-ended obligation to exchange your ticket for one on another airline, but you've failed to come up with anything?  Worth bearing in mind that they had delivered the ticket that you originally booked, but claimed not to be in a position to change that, so it's not as simple as not being able to deliver.

You can repeat it as many times as you want but there was NO 'subject to availability' disclaimer in their T&Cs.
I don't doubt that you didn't see one, but my point was twofold: (a) there is such a disclaimer in the flexibility Ts & Cs located by @Caz3121, and (b) there isn't really any need for one anyway, they obviously can't physically put you onto a flight where there's no space.  It's a moot point though if you have proof that there was availability with the same airline.

I repeat, those T&Cs were not on the site where I bought the tickets.
I didn't claim otherwise, but on what basis did you assess whether their flexibility policy was suitable for you?

In any case, like I said the other poster helping, it is good to read all these possible arguments Lastminute can give to be prepared.

The one problem I recognise I have is that the page where I read their T&Cs has disappeared. I told you that they ignored me when I asked them to send it to me (for a reason).
Yes, if you have no evidence of Ts & Cs that support your understanding, but there are Ts & Cs that support the opposite case, then it's not difficult to see what would happen if this was to be scrutinised by any independent body.... 

The last excuse they gave was that one can only change the date of original departure, not return. However, considering I was planning to change my return date, I could not have missed this after I read and re-read their online T&Cs.
But if you have nothing concrete that supports your understanding, then that's just anecdotal again.

Missed your post while cross-posting, but more comments above....

Westin

Any change to your flight itinerary under these “Flexi” policies has to be done prior to the first flight segment being flown. You can’t change the return once the outbound sector has been flown.

These OTA “Flexi” add on policies, other sold for around £30-£40 pp, don’t change a cheap restrictive air ticket into a fully flexible ticket. A fully flexible transatlantic ticket will often be priced in the thousands £££.